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Immaculate Conception (Read 4718 times)
Lisa Jones
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Immaculate Conception
Feb 15th, 2011 at 1:56pm
 
People refer to these two words quite a lot .. yet I wonder if they're truly understood.

What do you think this phrase means?
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #1 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 2:35pm
 
Well the idea of Immaculate Conception wasn't added to Catholic doctrine until 1854...

I read somewhere (long ago) that even the idea of the 'Virgin Birth' wasn't added to Church doctrine until sometime in the 11th or 12th century, and the original latin or greek wording in the bible means something more like 'heifer' does in cattle raising.......i.e first child, as opposed to the current meaning of 'never had sex'....

So that would make Jesus simply Mary's first born child, not a child conceived without sexual contact with her husband...

Which doesn't negate the possiblity of a supernatural intervention in the mind or 'spirit/soul' of the child...
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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muso
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #2 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:09pm
 
It all came about from a spelling mistake. The original word was the Hebrew "almah" (young woman) and this was mistranslated into parthenos, meaning virgin. The gospel writer Matthew quoted Isaiah in what seems to be a derivative of the Septuagint version (all but two of the fifteen Greek words are identical) when he said Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel.

I checked with my friend the theology prof, and he confirmed that It is widely accepted among Christian scholars that the story of the virgin birth of Jesus was a late interpolation, put in presumably by Greek-speaking disciples in order that the (mistranslated) prophecy should be seen to be fulfilled.

Some modern versions such as the New English Bible correctly give 'young woman' in Isaiah. They equally correctly leave 'virgin' in Matthew, since there they are translating from the Greek."

Quote:
Isaiah 7:14 (New International Version, ©2010)

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and[c] will call him Immanuel.[d]

Footnotes:

   1. Isaiah 7:14 The Hebrew is plural.
   2. Isaiah 7:14 Or young woman
   3. Isaiah 7:14 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls son, and he or son, and they
   4. Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel means God with us.


Quote:
[b]New English Bible
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: A young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and will call him Immanuel.

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...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #3 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:17pm
 
I noticed this post in another topic within Spirituality and it prompted me to start this topic.

Here .. have a read of the topic title and its opening post ..

Is Immaculate Conception Rape?

Today at 12:24pm 

So God screwed Mary, without her permission ... is this Rape?


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297736642

The topic title and the above opening post do not make any sense given that Immaculate Conception is a Catholic doctrine which states that MARY was born without original sin.

For some reason, the concept of Immaculate Conception is widely misunderstood. It has nothing to do with Mary's conception of Jesus but with the conception of Mary herself in her mother's womb.






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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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muso
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #4 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:27pm
 
I was answering Gizmo's point about Virgin Birth, but you're right Lisa - many people don't understand the term "immaculate conception", especially non-Catholics.

By the way, both genealogies of Jesus  provide the paternal ancestors (through Joseph).  These are Luke 3:23–38 and Matthew 1:1–17. (They are not identical)

So Matthew's (the Gospel writer) original mistranslation of the word almah in Isaiah resulted in an internal discrepancy within teh Gospel of Matthew that still exists.   

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gizmo_2655
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #5 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:28pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:09pm:
It all came about from a spelling mistake. The original word was the Hebrew "almah" (young woman) and this was mistranslated into parthenos, meaning virgin. The gospel writer Matthew quoted Isaiah in what seems to be a derivative of the Septuagint version (all but two of the fifteen Greek words are identical) when he said Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel.

I checked with my friend the theology prof, and he confirmed that It is widely accepted among Christian scholars that the story of the virgin birth of Jesus was a late interpolation, put in presumably by Greek-speaking disciples in order that the (mistranslated) prophecy should be seen to be fulfilled.

Some modern versions such as the New English Bible correctly give 'young woman' in Isaiah. They equally correctly leave 'virgin' in Matthew, since there they are translating from the Greek."

Quote:
Isaiah 7:14 (New International Version, ©2010)

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[a] a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and[c] will call him Immanuel.[d]

Footnotes:

  1. Isaiah 7:14 The Hebrew is plural.
  2. Isaiah 7:14 Or young woman
  3. Isaiah 7:14 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls son, and he or son, and they
  4. Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel means God with us.


Quote:
[b]New English Bible
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: A young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and will call him Immanuel.



Yeah, that's basically it...
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #6 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:37pm
 
.. but you're right Lisa - many people don't understand the term "immaculate conception", especially non-Catholics.

- Muso (Reply No 4 @ 3.27pm)


A very good afternoon to our Global Moderator Muso Smiley

The concept of Immaculate Conception is widely misunderstood. And it may very well have something to do with the fact that it is a Roman Catholic construct.

The term Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with Mary's conception of Jesus but with the conception of Mary herself in her mother's womb ie she was and still is .. considered to be free of Original Sin.

It's most important we understand what this phrase means otherwise we're going to confuse ourselves (and others).
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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Aussie
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #7 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 6:57pm
 
Yeah, well you have successfully befuddled me.  So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?
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whatsforme
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #8 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 7:05pm
 
Aussie wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 6:57pm:
Yeah, well you have successfully befuddled me.  So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?



Some Jew is my guess.
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #9 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 7:16pm
 
Aussie wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 6:57pm:
Yeah, well you have successfully befuddled me.  So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?



One of Jesus' older gay sex partners.
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Itanimulli
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #10 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 7:37pm
 
Why does everybody have this need to be disrespectful towards Christianity? Is it the latest fashion?
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whatsforme
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #11 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 7:40pm
 
Itanimulli wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 7:37pm:
Why does everybody have this need to be disrespectful towards Christianity? Is it the latest fashion?



Why does everybody say everybody when it isn't everybody?
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #12 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 8:06pm
 
Itanimulli asked:  (What an odd Tag......)


Quote:
Why does everybody have this need to be disrespectful towards Christianity? Is it the latest fashion?


Whereas I want to know:

Quote:
So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #13 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 8:32pm
 
Itanimulli wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 7:37pm:
Why does everybody have this need to be disrespectful towards Christianity? Is it the latest fashion?


It may be a full moon tonight and a few posters have been affected (if some of the other topics up top are anything to go by).
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Immaculate Conception
Reply #14 - Feb 15th, 2011 at 8:42pm
 
Aussie wrote on Feb 15th, 2011 at 6:57pm:
Yeah, well you have successfully befuddled me.  So, who is the Daddy of Jesus?  Let's start at that very basic level, huh?


God (as per the Bible). However this topic isn't about that .. it's about the concept of Immaculate Conception.

It appears not many know what this concept actually means.

If however you wish to discuss who the father of Jesus is .. then by all means you may start another topic.
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« Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2011 at 8:47pm by Lisa Jones »  

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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