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Metaphysics shapes society (Read 18438 times)
Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #15 - Feb 23rd, 2011 at 11:51am
 
There's an intersting text by Max Weber called The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism whereby he sets out to explain that the origins of capitalism (and thereby many of the West's advances) lies in the psychological minset of hard work and rigorous self-discipline.

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #16 - Feb 23rd, 2011 at 7:20pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 11:32am:
One of the most fascinating aspects of the rise of China is whether it can succeed without adopting the whole-package or whether a failure to do so will make the whole enterprise inherently unstable.

Ironic for anyone to imagine that for China to merely return to its 4000 year old social, cultural and scientific world dominance  (as opposed to aspiring to its novelty), it must adopt attitudes that are not Chinese.

Communism (at least the way the pragmatic Chinese have taken to adapting it or devolving it) does not seem to hinder the reclaiming of their place in the hierarchy of civilisation.

Could anyone accuse the Chinese of not being an innately industrious people, with a particular talent for innovation, an unyielding respect for the acquisition of knowledge and a born love of commerce (once limited to its borders, now extended to the world)? Which of the attributes needed to drive a civilisation powerhouse are not found quintessentially in the Chinese character?

Surely they haven't absorbed these traits from the west as much as rediscovered them in themselves.

Maybe its those things that have bedevilled the west, such as religious dogmatism, brutal militarism and political chauvinism, the Chinese need to avoid. Maybe the west offers a cautionary tale in that respect.

Perhaps it could be said that Marxism-Leninism (borrowed from the west) is the only fly in the Chinese ointment that truly constrains the culture from its modern rise being even more spectacular than it already is.
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« Last Edit: Feb 23rd, 2011 at 7:27pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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Soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #17 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:01am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 7:20pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 11:32am:
One of the most fascinating aspects of the rise of China is whether it can succeed without adopting the whole-package or whether a failure to do so will make the whole enterprise inherently unstable.

Ironic for anyone to imagine that for China to merely return to its 4000 year old social, cultural and scientific world dominance  (as opposed to aspiring to its novelty), it must adopt attitudes that are not Chinese.


It is not at all ironic, if only because China never dominated the world. Not even Asia and throughout its history it had serious difficulties even with dominating China itself.



Killer 'apps': the ideas that propelled the west to world domination
1.Competition: In the 15th century, China was the most advanced civilisation in the world, while Europe was a backwater. But then things changed and by the late 18th century Adam Smith could observe that China had been "long stationary". What happened? Ferguson argues that Europe's fragmented political structure led to competition and encouraged Europeans to seek opportunities in distant lands. The increasingly insular China, by contrast, stagnated.

2. Science: The 16th and 17th centuries were the age of science, with an extraordinary number of breakthroughs occurring. This revolution was, Ferguson writes, "by any scientific measure, wholly European". In the Muslim world, clericism curtailed the spread of knowledge, while in Europe, aided by the printing press, the scope of scholarship dramatically widened. Ultimately, breakthroughs in science led to improvements in weaponry, further cementing the west's advantage.

3. Property: Why did the empire established by the English in north America in the 17th century ultimately prove so much more successful than that established by the Spanish in south America a century earlier? It was, Ferguson contends, because the English settlers brought with them a particular conception of widely distributed property rights and democracy, inherited from John Locke. This proved a far better recipe for success than the Spanish model of concentrated wealth and authoritarianism.

4. Modern science: According to Ferguson, modern medicine was the west's "most remarkable killer application". Western medical advances in the 19th and 20th centuries increased life expectancies across the world, including in the colonies. The French in particular, largely thanks to a lofty conception of their imperial mission, brought significant improvements to public health in western Africa, developing effective vaccinations for diseases such as smallpox and yellow fever.

5. Consumption: The west's dominance of the rest of the world was not only achieved by force; it was also, as Ferguson shows, achieved through the market. The industrial revolution in 18th and 19th century Britain created a model of consumerist society that has proved irresistible, as shown, for example, by the way that the western style of dressing has swept the globe. Yet there's a paradox: how was it that an economic system designed to offer infinite choice has ended up homogenising humanity?

6. Work ethic: As Max Weber noted a century ago, Protestantism was a form of Christianity that encouraged hard work (and just as importantly, Ferguson adds, reading and saving). It isn't a coincidence, he says, that the decline of religion in Europe has led to Europeans becoming the "idlers of the world" (while the more religious US has remained hard-working). Interestingly, Ferguson also argues that China's embrace of hard work is partly because of the spread there of Protestantism.

Niall Ferguson's Civilization begins on 6 March on Channel 4
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/20/niall-ferguson-interview-civilizatio...


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aikmann4
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #18 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 12:53pm
 
soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #19 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 1:04pm
 
aikmann4 wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 12:53pm:
soren


wha'?
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #20 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 1:08pm
 
ziggy
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Soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #21 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 1:10pm
 
Huh?
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #22 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 1:17pm
 
hello
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Soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #23 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 3:39pm
 
Hello, I must be going.



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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #24 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 3:52pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:01am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 7:20pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 11:32am:
One of the most fascinating aspects of the rise of China is whether it can succeed without adopting the whole-package or whether a failure to do so will make the whole enterprise inherently unstable.

Ironic for anyone to imagine that for China to merely return to its 4000 year old social, cultural and scientific world dominance  (as opposed to aspiring to its novelty), it must adopt attitudes that are not Chinese.


It is not at all ironic, if only because China never dominated the world. Not even Asia and throughout its history it had serious difficulties even with dominating China itself.


No, it merely dominated global trade which, in the proto-capitalist era of "gunship diplomacy", was not the same thing as dominating the world.

It is now though.
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muso
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #25 - Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:29pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:01am:
Interestingly, Ferguson also argues that China's embrace of hard work is partly because of the spread there of Protestantism.



Damn  Grin Grin Grin

That Protestantism must have really taken hold in Japan too - and in Bangalore, India.

Absolute unmitigated revisionist rot.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #26 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 12:19am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:01am:
6. Work ethic: As Max Weber noted a century ago, Protestantism was a form of Christianity that encouraged hard work (and just as importantly, Ferguson adds, reading and saving). It isn't a coincidence, he says, that the decline of religion in Europe has led to Europeans becoming the "idlers of the world" (while the more religious US has remained hard-working).

Strange that here in Australia, where religiosity has also been in sharp decline for decades, the nation has gone from being the 'land of the long weekend' to one of the homes of the world's hardest working people.
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #27 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 8:18am
 
muso wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:29pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:01am:
Interestingly, Ferguson also argues that China's embrace of hard work is partly because of the spread there of Protestantism.



Damn  Grin Grin Grin

That Protestantism must have really taken hold in Japan too - and in Bangalore, India.

Absolute unmitigated revisionist rot.


My dear Mr Musician, for a scientist you rarely think straight. It's a worry. These 6 'killer apps' are modernese for what Ferguson thinks as necessary conditions for the dominance of the west. They are not, individually, sufficient. Not the same thing, necessary and sugfficient. (See short explanation for 'scientist' here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/necessary-sufficient/

Wink
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #28 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 8:19am
 
Karnal wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 3:52pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:01am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 7:20pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 11:32am:
One of the most fascinating aspects of the rise of China is whether it can succeed without adopting the whole-package or whether a failure to do so will make the whole enterprise inherently unstable.

Ironic for anyone to imagine that for China to merely return to its 4000 year old social, cultural and scientific world dominance  (as opposed to aspiring to its novelty), it must adopt attitudes that are not Chinese.


It is not at all ironic, if only because China never dominated the world. Not even Asia and throughout its history it had serious difficulties even with dominating China itself.


No, it merely dominated global trade which, in the proto-capitalist era of "gunship diplomacy", was not the same thing as dominating the world.

It is now though.



When did China dominate world trade?
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Karnal
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #29 - Feb 26th, 2011 at 4:54pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 26th, 2011 at 8:19am:
Karnal wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 3:52pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 25th, 2011 at 11:01am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 7:20pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 23rd, 2011 at 11:32am:
One of the most fascinating aspects of the rise of China is whether it can succeed without adopting the whole-package or whether a failure to do so will make the whole enterprise inherently unstable.

Ironic for anyone to imagine that for China to merely return to its 4000 year old social, cultural and scientific world dominance  (as opposed to aspiring to its novelty), it must adopt attitudes that are not Chinese.


It is not at all ironic, if only because China never dominated the world. Not even Asia and throughout its history it had serious difficulties even with dominating China itself.


No, it merely dominated global trade which, in the proto-capitalist era of "gunship diplomacy", was not the same thing as dominating the world.

It is now though.



When did China dominate world trade?


You haven't heard of Marco Polo?

A favourite site, old boy:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10976

The rise of the West over the last 500 years, while important, can be seen as a blip.
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« Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2011 at 5:21pm by Karnal »  
 
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