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Metaphysics shapes society (Read 18498 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #45 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 10:24pm
 
China paid a huge price for its last Stalinist-style crushing of democratic dissent in 1989 and not just in its loss of world standing. Many of China's most brilliant minds voted (if they could) with their feet, to the west. Many are now returning and the Chinese government is welcoming them and planning incentives to maintain that homecoming.

They still struggle with the yoke of a communist central government (as witnessed by the central government's obsession with internet censorship) and state control - the western political disease that infected China - but that is slowly subsiding. They are a pragmatic people (with an aversion to political chaos) and its unlikely that a Tunisia / Egypt / Libya democratic revolution will happen there. The disease of communism will need to atrophy over time driven by economic affluence born of merit over privilege.

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Soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #46 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 10:40pm
 
Communism suits China's autocratic character. It's not a disease for them but the modern expression of what China has always been: centralised autocracy.

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muso
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #47 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 6:38am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 28th, 2011 at 10:40pm:
Communism suits China's autocratic character. It's not a disease for them but the modern expression of what China has always been: centralised autocracy.


It would surprise you if you could live in China for a while and listen to ordinary conversations. Nobody likes the current autocracy. Things will have to change. Whenever you get a rich middle class, change happens. Hopefully it will be a gradual process of change.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #48 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 7:08am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 28th, 2011 at 10:40pm:
Communism suits China's autocratic character. It's not a disease for them but the modern expression of what China has always been: centralised autocracy.


Regional Chinese governments are routinely and openly criticised by locals, so the culture of peaceful political dissent is growing there. Criticism of the central government is still taboo but as more Chinese become educated and affluent - when it becomes clear to the Chinese that autocratic centralisation is the final barrier to the greatest of "heaven's" gifts - lasting prosperity - When autocracy is seen only as the Chinese modern equivalent of self-defeating aristocratic chauvinism - that too will erode. Erode... not collapse... maybe into a political landscape resembling Taiwan.

When the need is great, everything can change.
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Soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #49 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 8:00am
 
It doesn't work quite like that - prosperity/middle class leading to freedom.

It always starts with a group/class that is already free and has a stake in society, through taxation and social institutions. Western liberal societies started with the aristocracy enforcing its freedom from arbitrary royal rule.

Nevertheless, a rich and free class is no guarantee for anything. A lot of people having a lot of money does not alter the way they relate to each other and the broader, lower classes around them. WHat is necessary is a fundamental (metaphysical) view that they are all equal at the most elemantaly level, even if not in their possessions. This is the fundamental metaphysical view that allow for the expansion of the political franchise from the aristocracy to the lesser nobility, the propertied commons (burgeoisie), the unpropertied commons (workers) and finally women. It is not in the economic interest of the already enfranchised to extend the franchise. It happens only when powerful moral (ie metaphysical) arguments are presented, often backed up be the force of arms. Ultimately, however, the moral argument must be compelling for a sustained expansion of the franchise.

But not every culture rests on the fundations of ultimate equality of all its members. There are societies where inequality is the foundation, where the entire moral code starts out with inequality. In such societies revolutions lead to changed management but not greater freedom for all. That's basically what has been happning pretty much everywhere to the east and south of the Bosphorus.

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Karnal
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #50 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 10:38am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 28th, 2011 at 10:40pm:
Communism suits China's autocratic character. It's not a disease for them but the modern expression of what China has always been: centralised autocracy.


Yes - they used to say the same about the Germans.

To an extent, you're right, but you neglect the other (crucial) aspect of past Chinese administration: the Mandarins.

These officials were chosen by merit (exams), and had enormous power, particularly as provincial governers.

Today, most aspects of trade, industry, health, social policy, and legal and administrative power in China are still organised at the provincial level.

China has never been the centralized power you seem to believe, and perhaps this was its strength. The sheer size of China made centralization impossible.

However, aspects of Chinese development were centralized. Kafka writes a great essay on the building of the Great Wall, and the determined centralised planning that was required over centuries to train generations of architects.

Malcolm Turnbull made a very interesting point on Q&A last night: the very reason China lost its trade hegemony was that it turned inward. Like the warring Western powers of the time, it banned trade with foreigners.

In other words, it played the reactionary, racist, One Nation card.

Your analysis that China has ALWAYS been this way is not correct. China BECAME this way through a reactionary belief in its own superiority - the very thing many members of this board believe about the West.

In a time of Western economic decline.

So, which comes first - the decline, or the belief in one's own cultural superiority?

I think, Soren, you have posed this question most succinctly - intentionally or otherwise.




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« Last Edit: Mar 1st, 2011 at 10:44am by Karnal »  
 
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Soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #51 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 6:18pm
 
I took the kids to see the entombed warriors at the Gallery. It occured to me that China is the place for the mammoth undertaking that in the end adds up to world historical folly: the Great Wall, the 9000 terracotta warriors, the cultural revolution. Borges characterises the mindset interestingly by describing 'a certain Chinese Encyclopedia,' the Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge, in which it is written that animals are divided into:

those that belong to the Emperor,
embalmed ones,
those that are trained,
suckling pigs,
mermaids,
fabulous ones,
stray dogs,
those included in the present classification,
those that tremble as if they were mad,
innumerable ones,
those drawn with a very fine camelhair brush,
others,
those that have just broken a flower vase,
those that from a long way off look like flies. "

Complete, refined and fabulous, yet odd and useless. (Or its use is not obviou to the Chinese, to be more historically accurate...)
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« Last Edit: Mar 1st, 2011 at 7:01pm by Soren »  
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #52 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 9:19pm
 
Soren wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 8:00am:
It doesn't work quite like that - prosperity/middle class leading to freedom.

Or so you'd think... Until the underclasses learn to read and write, then aspire.

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #53 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 9:41pm
 
Karnal wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 10:38am:
Kafka writes a great essay on the building of the Great Wall, and the determined centralised planning that was required over centuries to train generations of architects.

An ode to filial angst.
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #54 - Mar 2nd, 2011 at 9:32am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 9:41pm:
Karnal wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 10:38am:
Kafka writes a great essay on the building of the Great Wall, and the determined centralised planning that was required over centuries to train generations of architects.

An ode to filial angst.


Sorry, Helian, what does filial angst mean?
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Soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #55 - Mar 2nd, 2011 at 9:33am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 9:19pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 8:00am:
It doesn't work quite like that - prosperity/middle class leading to freedom.

Or so you'd think... Until the underclasses learn to read and write, then aspire.




Well, they can aspire all they like but aspiring for prosperity is not the same as aspiring for freedom because the two are not interchangable.

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #56 - Mar 2nd, 2011 at 8:28pm
 
Karnal wrote on Mar 2nd, 2011 at 9:32am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 9:41pm:
Karnal wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 10:38am:
Kafka writes a great essay on the building of the Great Wall, and the determined centralised planning that was required over centuries to train generations of architects.

An ode to filial angst.


Sorry, Helian, what does filial angst mean?

Just referring to Kafka's obsession with trying to please his father rendered as the metaphor of Chinese peasants trying to please the Emperor.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #57 - Mar 3rd, 2011 at 7:32am
 
Soren wrote on Mar 2nd, 2011 at 9:33am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 9:19pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 8:00am:
It doesn't work quite like that - prosperity/middle class leading to freedom.

Or so you'd think... Until the underclasses learn to read and write, then aspire.




Well, they can aspire all they like but aspiring for prosperity is not the same as aspiring for freedom because the two are not interchangable.


Yet both (aspirations to prosperity and political freedom) owe their realisation to having the personal wherewithal to do so... and nothing empowers like eduction.
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Soren
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #58 - Mar 3rd, 2011 at 9:12am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 7:32am:
Soren wrote on Mar 2nd, 2011 at 9:33am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 9:19pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 8:00am:
It doesn't work quite like that - prosperity/middle class leading to freedom.

Or so you'd think... Until the underclasses learn to read and write, then aspire.




Well, they can aspire all they like but aspiring for prosperity is not the same as aspiring for freedom because the two are not interchangable.


Yet both (aspirations to prosperity and political freedom) owe their realisation to having the personal wherewithal to do so... and nothing empowers like education.



Education is probably THE human enterprise that is most obviously rooted in metaphysics (the way the world is understood). It can never be (and never even pretends to be) value-neutral - which is another way of saying it is not metaphysics-neutral.
The idea of human enpowerment, for example, comes out of a particular understanding of the human person, an understanding that is by no means shared by the human race across time and throughout the world. There is no 'empowerment' among animists, for example. For them the world is just not that kind of a place.



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muso
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Re: Metaphysics shapes society
Reply #59 - Mar 3rd, 2011 at 11:07am
 
Soren wrote on Mar 1st, 2011 at 6:18pm:
I took the kids to see the entombed warriors at the Gallery. It occured to me that China is the place for the mammoth undertaking that in the end adds up to world historical folly: the Great Wall, the 9000 terracotta warriors, the cultural revolution. Borges characterises the mindset interestingly by describing 'a certain Chinese Encyclopedia,' the Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge, in which it is written that animals are divided into:

those that belong to the Emperor,
embalmed ones,
those that are trained,
suckling pigs,
mermaids,
fabulous ones,
stray dogs,
those included in the present classification,
those that tremble as if they were mad,
innumerable ones,
those drawn with a very fine camelhair brush,
others,
those that have just broken a flower vase,
those that from a long way off look like flies. "

Complete, refined and fabulous, yet odd and useless. (Or its use is not obviou to the Chinese, to be more historically accurate...)


Very reminiscent of De Nuptiis Philologiae et Mercurii (Martianus Capella), but of course that was a real work as opposed to a fictitious one.
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