Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 7:01pm:



Sneering and jeering is for morons.  You could not have your faith in reason without Christianity. You couldn't have your history, literature, philosophy, all your mental furniture without it. You wouln't be you without Christianity. 
Don't believe in it. But when you sneer at it, when you jeer at it, you are the manic idiot sticking out his tongue at the mirror.

Soren wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 9:42pm:


Oh dear, you do have it bad don't you? I assure you Reason, History, Literature and joined up thinking all existed and would've continued to develop without religious interference. For instance neither spelt a miraculous natural hybrid discovered and cultivated near Jericho nor the subsequent further hybridization which occurred in Turkey 10,000 years ago to produce the wheat civilization is fed on needed the church. Neither did the wheel's, (and axles) inventor 3,500 years BCE, who managed to nut out the problems all on his/her own. Where does literature start ? The 'Epic of Gilgamesh' (2000 BCE) Or perhaps to the more poetic 16,000 years before that at Lascaux.



Ascribing human enlightenment to religion is just daft. The cart is pulling a dead horse up the mountain.

In 2009 I spent a month in Europe -- Britain, Germany, France and Belgium -- working on Muslim immigration issues.

I interviewed government ministers, immigration officials, non-government organisation advocates, immigrants themselves and almost anyone who would talk to me. What became clear was that uncontrolled Muslim immigration from North Africa (and from Pakistan in Britain's case) had presented itself as an asylum issue, and thereby disabled Europe's political response, and had been a disaster on the ground.

Christopher Caldwell's book, Reflections on the Revolution in Europe, the best book of any kind on public policy I have read, establishes definitively that this has been overwhelmingly a determined illegal immigration, not a refugee question.

The same is happening in northern Australia now, and as the Gillard government loses control of the situation, the number of illegal immigrants, almost all Muslim, will increase, exactly replicating the dynamics of Europe's disaster, though of course on a much smaller scale.

So while I remain an advocate of a bigger immigration program, and would be happy to have the refugee quota enlarged, I am now a strong critic of lax borders and allowing illegal immigrants to turn up without papers and then settle permanently.

Caldwell's book, along with the evidence of my own eyes, also convinced me that many North Africans were not going to Europe to embrace European values but to continue their North African life, with its values, at a European living standard and at the expense of the European taxpayer.

Living next to Lakemba for nearly 15 years also gave me a different view of how immigration can go wrong. Our sons went initially to a state primary school that had a brilliant principal and did a fine job.

But as they approached secondary school a senior teacher told us that our boys had academic potential and it would be a tragedy to send them to the local high school. It was riven with violence and misogyny, drugs and gang and ethnic conflict.

If you find yourself unexpectedly in a war zone, your instinct is to evacuate the family, so the boys went to a private Catholic school, which was racially and even religiously diverse, though I don't believe there were any Muslim kids there. It was excellent.

Lakemba and surrounding areas such as Punchbowl had a large Lebanese Muslim population, many of whom had come when Malcolm Fraser crazily instituted a come-one, come-all admissions policy for those claiming to be refugees from the Lebanon conflicts of the 80s.

Replicating the European experience that the second generation had more trouble than the first, it was the sons of some of these immigrants who figured heavily in anti-social activities.

I was shocked to discover the growth of jihadi culture in Lakemba. We used to go to its main street for shopping and for food.

One day, waiting for a pizza order, I wandered into the Muslim bookshop. I was astounded to see titles such as The International Jew or The Truth about the Pope, amid a welter of anti-Semitic, anti-Christian and pro-extremist literature.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/how-i-lost-faith-in-multiculturalism/story-fn59niix-1226031793805

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None of my suggestions even hint at them being clones. How is this even relevant? Would you argue we let convicted rapists or thieves in because until now they have targetted people in their own country rather than Australians?

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Did you read what I suggested? How is choosing who can enter this country anything like a pogrom?

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My suggestions have nothing to do with trolleys or relgion. They are about democracy and freedom. And unlike you, I have asked Muslims about it. I suggest you do the same. Or are you suggesting that the ability to move a fridge is the only criteria we should apply to potential immigrants?

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Have you ever had to actually defend yourself? This sort of naive BS only works while you are paying someone else to carry your stick.

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Then I ask you the same question Jas - what do you actually mean by moderate? Do you even know what you mean? Does being 'just a sparky' make someone moderate?

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Have you ever asked a woman whether they would prefer to live under American law and social standards or Islamic ones? Or would that involve mentioning too many of those inconvenient details you try so hard to avoid? You seem to be projecting a lot onto both Muslims and women without even stopping to ask them what they think.

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Again Jas, have you ever asked a woman what they want?

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Again Jas, have you ever asked them why they do what they do?

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So Jas, you even define Islam for them? Aren't you taking the whole arrogance thing a bit too far?

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Why don't you ask them what they think Jas?

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Would you support immigration policy that bars entry to those who have no interest in doing so?

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I think they would get laughed at. If you had a choice between doing that in the heartland of happy clappers or the heartland of Islam, which would you choose?

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Yadda, look deep into my eyes  , I don't have a fixed world view. I was for most of my life an Anarchist. The only reason I don't use that as a self description now is the realisation that the only Anarchist gang worth anything is called 'general public'. I'm also an atheist, my view is unimpeded by dogma.

My only interest is in finding true things. Usually that means finding the point of paradox where the conflicting views collide. I don't wish to defend Islam actually. I find all religions pretty well equal in their respective nuttyness. But when one side is dominating the argument I'll take the other to make the balance.

Of course a Muslims point of view will always be biased. So will the view of any gang member be biased. I'm familiar with  'undercover mosque', it was a work of journalism that needed doing and it was well done. I don't want Mullah's like that in Australia and they are here. But it is equally false to assert that they represent the views of all Muslims.  Some of the preaching that comes off Christian pulpits and some of what is said in synagogues is as divisive and hate driven. All churches need to be held to account.

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So you support immigration restrictions?

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What's this? An attempt to divide and rule Bogey? 

I'm inclined to agree with most of Greg Sheridans piece.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/how-i-lost-faith-in-multicultur...

What he doesn't address is the cause of modern Islamic militancy. In large measure it's our own devil biting us (the western hegemony) on the arse. Not surprising for somebody who, as he said, has been an unwavering supporter of Israel.

Let me for the record say these things. And if I contradict myself, as Walt Whitman said. "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am legion, there are many of us living here."

I have never  supported multiculturalism. From the first time I heard the word I hated it. I love and desire cosmopolitan society, that happy period when cultures merge and share, reject what is not useful and adopt that which is good. It's a dynamic process that is beyond the scope of government interference.

I don't think France ever adopted MC in the first place. France has always taken the same line. The French are completely colourblind, anybody from anywhere is French - just as long as they act French in everyway. I love the french for their antiracism, I loathe their authoritarianism, (I once saw a gendarme whack a kid across the face with a truncheon for leaning on a parked car). France has been a favoured refuge for black americans like Billie Holliday, Paul Robson and Nina Simone, but it can never be cosmopolitan like London, or Istanbul. 

I supported a war to oust the Taliban even before 9/11. If there's one thing worse than fascism it's theofascism, nobody anywhere should have to live like that; not in Afghanistan, nor Yemen, Saudi Arabia or anywhere else. That includes Iran, but Iran is different. I don't believe
that the hard line clerics of Iran are as entrenched. I think the Persians are a sophisticated people who will soon sort themselves out.

I don't think that there's any reason to not accept 'economic refugees'. Things have to be extreme before people will leave their homelands for whatever reason. If it was a simple matter of 'being better off' Scotland and the North of England would have emptied into London decades ago and London would've emptied into Australia in the sixties. The vast majority of people will not leave no matter how bad things get.

If Al Quaeda terrorists wanted to enter Australia they'd be more likely to hold Israeli diplomatic passports and fly in Quantas business class, than attempt to cross the sea in a leaky boat.

Australia isn't served by damaging people psychologically before letting them out into the community. Nobody in their right mind would riot while waiting to get residency approval without feeling that this was the only way to be noticed enough to get anything happening at all before dieing of old age.

People should be dealt with always as themselves. Not as Jews or Muslims or black or white. The worst thing that is being said here is that Muslims are all the same. Nearly 2 billion people 'all the same', it's bullshit. There's a huge difference between Europe and Australia, Australia needs more people, give the kids training and a well paying job - end of problem. If you find some mad mullahs give 'em a lift to yemen. Drop 'em off halfway and let them swim the rest, no worries from me.