Australian Politics Forum - The case against Islamic immigration

Yadda

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #210 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 9:13am

spiny mendoza wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 1:43pm:

I'm saying that I think that you consider that you have special rights to withhold democracy and freedoms, at will, and that indicates to me that you don't mean DEMOCRACY and you don't MEAN freedom, but you might have some kind of ....hehehe.... unique sense of entitlement goin' on in your skull.

A question.

Do people [i.e. 'generic' Australians] who claim to embrace the principles underlying 'democracy and freedoms', also claim that it is an expression of intolerance, for themselves to abhor, for example, the principles enshrined within a philosophy such as, for example, Nazism ???

e.g.
If today, full blooded, dyed in the wool, Nazis wanted to migrate to Australia, should Australians permit Nazis to migrate to Australia [because Australians MUST extend the rights of democracy and freedoms we enjoy, to all others] ???

spiny mendoza wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2011 at 1:43pm:

I'm getting hung up on this notion that you can refuse entry to murderers and rapists. Maybe you mean that you can refuse it to convicted murderers and rapists and thieves. I add thieves because that is a liberal and inclusive thing to do. You don't think that all murderers, rapists and thieves are CONVICTED, do you? And you must not think that all convictions are RIGHTEOUS, do you?

Can you tell a murderer, rapist and/or thief by appearance? By profiling? By magic devination? Why do you limit access to those people and not to pornographers or polygamists?

I talk of Nazis, you talk of how to identify 'murderers and rapists'.

spinymendoza said,

"Can you tell a murderer, rapist and/or thief by appearance?"

Forget about Nazis, 'murderers and rapists'!!

What 'lifestyle' do moslems [who are being welcomed to Australia] embrace ????

Moslems embrace the tenets of ISLAM.

Tenets of faith which include the right to murder moslems who abandon ISLAM.

And the absolute right of moslem parents to murder their children, is another tenet of faith which moslems must embrace.

And the right of moslems to oppress and murder non-moslems [whenever non-moslems reject the authority of ISLAM/moslems over their lives], is another tenet of faith which moslems must embrace. [aka Jihad]

[n.b. I can provide refs, for convincing proofs for the three claims i make, immediately above.]

Nazis, 'murderers and rapists' ????

You are all insane.

I ask, can we tell a moslem from a non-moslem ???

Yes.

Moslems, declare;

"I am a moslem. Allah is my God, and Mohammed was his prophet."

But hey!!!

We Australians must embrace the right of moslems to migrate to Australia,
BECAUSE WE, BELIEVE IN THE RIGHT OF MOSLEMS TO LIVE AMONG US, AND
BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY, AND
BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN THE PRINCIPLE OF EXTENDING 'HUMAN RIGHTS' TO ALL.

i.e.
We believe in extending 'human rights' to those who embrace a philosophy [ISLAM], whose intent is to extinguish the freedoms and liberties which we did not earn, freedoms and liberties which our forefathers earned, with their blood and with their sacrifice.

+++

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

Karl Popper

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."

Thomas Mann

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #211 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 10:14am

Yadda wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 9:13am:

But hey!!!

We Australians must embrace the right of moslems to migrate to Australia,
BECAUSE WE, BELIEVE IN THE RIGHT OF MOSLEMS TO LIVE AMONG US, AND
BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY, AND
BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN THE PRINCIPLE OF EXTENDING 'HUMAN RIGHTS' TO ALL.

i.e.
We believe in extending 'human rights' to those who embrace a philosophy [ISLAM], whose intent is to extinguish the freedoms and liberties which we did not earn, freedoms and liberties which our forefathers earned, with their blood and with their sacrifice.

+++

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

Karl Popper

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."

Thomas Mann

IMO, many of us [people like Australians], who claim the right [for ourselves] to enjoy our rights and freedoms, wouldn't lift a finger to defend THE PRINCIPLES upon which those rights and freedoms are predicated.

The principles of upholding truth and justice, and of abhorring and actively opposing, oppressive wickedness.

This society [the 'West'] is sick, lazy, and corrupted.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Grey

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #212 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 11:05am

You'd think looking back over the last 100 Years that Muslims keep making big mess and all Christians have done is tidy up after them. If we'd kept to an orthodox Islamic banking system alone the world wouldn't be in half the mess it is.

You can pick over the Quoran and say 'Look at this, these people must be nuts', but you can do the same to the Bible or Torah. You can look at bad things done in Islamic lands and say, 'why don't Muslims protest more about this sort of thing', but you can do the same looking at Christian lands. In Nigeria Christians are torturing kids to death, 'because they are posessed by devils'. Waheed Aly is a man of reason and a great contributor to Australian society. Why is it all Muslims are to be judged by the worst of Muslims?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/editorials/a-debate-we-have-to-have/story-e6...

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Yadda

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #213 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 11:19am

Grey wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 11:05am:

You'd think looking back over the last 100 Years that Muslims keep making big mess and all Christians have done is tidy up after them. If we'd kept to an orthodox Islamic banking system alone the world wouldn't be in half the mess it is.

You can pick over the Quoran and say 'Look at this, these people must be nuts', but you can do the same to the Bible or Torah. You can look at bad things done in Islamic lands and say, 'why don't Muslims protest more about this sort of thing', but you can do the same looking at Christian lands. In Nigeria Christians are torturing kids to death, 'because they are posessed by devils'. Waheed Aly is a man of reason and a great contributor to Australian society. Why is it all Muslims are to be judged by the worst of Muslims?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/editorials/a-debate-we-have-to-have/story-e6...

Grey,

You are still living in denial of objective truth.

Q.
Why won't YOU confront, what ISLAM clearly justifies?

Q.
If the person you name is a great moslem man, why won't the person you name publicly confront, what ISLAM clearly justifies?
[Is the reason, because the person you name, privately endorses what ISLAM encourages, in moslems ???? ]

A.
Because you are both pathetic deceivers, and deniers of object truth relating to ISLAM, relating to ISLAM's doctrines, relating to ISLAM's tenets of faith, justifying murder and oppression.

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2011 at 11:32am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Baronvonrort

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #214 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 11:53am

Grey wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 11:05am:

If we'd kept to an orthodox Islamic banking system alone the world wouldn't be in half the mess it is.

In Nigeria Christians are torturing kids to death, 'because they are posessed by devils'. Waheed Aly is a man of reason and a great contributor to Australian society. Why is it all Muslims are to be judged by the worst of Muslims?

I have doubts about your claim you are atheist because the majority of your posts praise Islam while bashing christians in a thread about Islam.
Atheists will keep on topic it is a muslim tactic to divert the debate to what christians do or did.

Can you cite evidence that christians are torturing children to death in Nigeria or did you pluck that from your ass?

In 2002 muslims rioted over the Miss World contest in Nigeria killing people in the name of Allah read more here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2498931.stm

As for muslims writing about Islam then Dr Zuhdi Jasser from the American Islamic forum for democracy is the best IMO he does not tell lies about Political Islam and appears to be a genuine reformer in Islam.
You should read what Dr Jasser a muslim says about Islam.
http://www.aifdemocracy.org/news.php?id=6648

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Grey

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #215 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 2:46pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 11:53am:

I have doubts about your claim you are atheist because the majority of your posts praise Islam while bashing christians in a thread about Islam.

A topic as Fascist as 'The case against Islamic immigration' requires a defence of Islam relative to other religions quite obviously. I've made quite clear in the course of this thread, my personal contempt for all religions and anything else that goes bump in the night.

Quote:

Atheists will keep on topic it is a muslim tactic to divert the debate to what christians do or did.

Do you actually have a point or have you just taken it upon yourself to tell me how to debate? I think you need to grow up a bit son, before you tell grandad how to fish.

Quote:

Can you cite evidence that christians are torturing children to death in Nigeria or did you pluck that from your ass?

Certainly, but this is common knowledge to informed persons.

Quote:

In 2002 muslims rioted over the Miss World contest in Nigeria killing people in the name of Allah read more here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2498931.stm

Not the worst reason to riot.

Quote:

As for muslims writing about Islam then Dr Zuhdi Jasser from the American Islamic forum for democracy is the best IMO he does not tell lies about Political Islam and appears to be a genuine reformer in Islam.
You should read what Dr Jasser a muslim says about Islam.
http://www.aifdemocracy.org/news.php?id=6648

So, at last something reasonable conceding that there's a 'political Islam' and a 'reformist Islam'. Keep at it and you might find a few more varities amongst the getting on for 2 billion Muslims.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: The case against Islamic immigration Reply #216 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 3:04pm The Devils http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/22/us/22beliefs.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&ref=world&adxn... The apologists http://www.revelife.com/727716519/exorcism-and-the-children-of-nigeria-fact-or-f...
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: The case against Islamic immigration Reply #217 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 3:21pm Good ole nutty Jesus
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Yadda

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #218 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 4:03pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 9:13am:

What 'lifestyle' do moslems [who are being welcomed to Australia] embrace ????

Moslems embrace the tenets of ISLAM.

Tenets of faith which include the right to murder moslems who abandon ISLAM.

And the absolute right of moslem parents to murder their children, is another tenet of faith which moslems must embrace.

And the right of moslems to oppress and murder non-moslems [whenever non-moslems reject the authority of ISLAM/moslems over their lives], is another tenet of faith which moslems must embrace. [aka Jihad]

In Sharia jurisdictions...
ISLAMIC law *sanctifies* the murder of wives and children under certain circumstances, e.g. apostasy [categorised as 'rebellion' against ISLAM's authority over their lives].
ISLAMIC law *specifically* gives moslem men, the right to kill their children [and grandchildren].

e.g.

"British girl kidnapped by Saudi father: "I told [the police] he was keeping me there against my will and all they said was, 'He's your father, if he wants he can kill you'."
Indeed, traditional Islamic law does not prescribe retaliation against a parent for killing his or her child. For example: "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2)." "

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/british-girl-kidnapped-by-saudi-father-i-told-...

The murder of moslem women and children often goes *unreported* within Sharia jurisdictions....
....because clearly such 'events' [within families] are not even regarded as crimes within ISLAMIC law.

Google;
uk muslim daughter found buried backyard suitcase

Google;
uk muslim honour killings

+++

Those persons who defend ISLAM, need to take a hard look at themselves.

What are they defending?

And exactly why do they feel a need to defend such a violent, vicious, and abusive philosophy ?

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2011 at 4:36pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: The case against Islamic immigration Reply #219 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 5:23pm Don't you have any faith in Australian culture Yadda? When exposed to tolerant societies intolerant ones lose. Right here your views are the most intolerant and potentially violent by the way. Learn a bit of self control man.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #220 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 6:44pm

Grey wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 2:46pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 11:53am:

As for muslims writing about Islam then Dr Zuhdi Jasser from the American Islamic forum for democracy is the best IMO he does not tell lies about Political Islam and appears to be a genuine reformer in Islam.
You should read what Dr Jasser a muslim says about Islam.
http://www.aifdemocracy.org/news.php?id=6648

So, at last something reasonable conceding that there's a 'political Islam' and a 'reformist Islam'. Keep at it and you might find a few more varities amongst the getting on for 2 billion Muslims.

Are you conceding that Islam has a political aspect that is in need of reform?

Islam has a separate set of rules for dealing with non muslims which makes this part of Islam political,Kishori Saran Lal was the first to do statistics on Islam and 64% of the Quran is devoted to the kuffar which only leaves 36% of the Quran for religion so statistically Islam is more of a political ideology than religion.

Islam is considered perfect and complete so to suggest it should be reformed is blasphemy which is punishable by death.
The death penalty for blasphemy protects the Islamic meme from being corrupted and if you knew anything about Islam you would understand muslims claim the Quran is the only holy book that has not been corrupted and the reason Allah sent Mohammad to be his messenger was the fact the bible and torah were corrupted by man and Allah wanted to straighten this up.Islam will not allow man to corrupt the perfect words of Allah in the Quran.

Dr Jasser would like to reform Islam yet the reality is he has no authority to do this and if you bothered to read what he writes you might discover CAIR along with revolution muslim have branded him a murtad/apostate which means mainstream Islam considers him to be a heretic and he has received death threats.

Your ignorance about Islam shows with your "reformist Islam" nonsense.
The Ahmadi muslims tried to reform Islam which resulted in them no longer being able to call themselves "muslims" in Pakistan where they originated and they can be jailed for "outraging the religious beliefs of a muslim".
Abdus Salam was the first muslim to win a nobel prize in science for his work on Pakistans nuclear projects yet he was an Ahmadi muslim so they removed the word "muslim" from his grave.

So how did this attempt at reform work out for the Ahmadi-
Listen to the imam call for their deaths in friday prayers saying their blood is halal.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N-7qeENdDI

The mob killed Ahmadi muslims www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqJ1AZrTSQI

Ahmadi muslims being persecuted by muslims in mainstream Islam for the crime of trying to modernise (reform) Islam.
www.thepersecution.org

The ahmadi muslims tried to reform and modernise Islam and from Pakistan to Indonesia they are being told they cannot call themselves muslims by mainstream muslims they are branded heretic deviants.

Political Islam cannot be separated from Islam it makes up 64% of the Quran if you support Islam you support Political Islam.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #221 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 6:58pm

spiny mendoza wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 2:54am:

Freediver, the methods are fundamentally at issue when you say that you want them to do a good job. Consider any job that you want to be done well. If you know nothing about the process do you automatically accept that you are benefitting from it, and that, in this specific case, that you are safer BECAUSE of it? Yikes! That's a statement of FAITH.

Well, that's okay. You have faith that the water that comes out of the tap is potable, and the guys at immigration are going to try to weed out murderers and rapists and send them off to countries which will welcome them, and for their own good, too. You aren't going to have concerns about any of that, and why should you?

There's nothing inherently racist about not welcoming murderers and rapists. I think that there's something quite childlike and trusting in the expression of faith that they can be sorted out, but I like children, as long as they are clean and don't touch things without permission.

I understand that children are fearful, and that they hold fears that are purposely taught to them. That's why nightlights sell. There are times when I have to fight an impulse to check under the bed for Mormons and astrologers. We all got some of those buttons.

You think the destruction of democracy and the erosion of our personal freedoms is an irrational fear? What about getting blown up because I host a cartoon of Muhammed on my website? What about getting blown up in a bus on the way to work because some kids took a disliking to the government's foreign policy?

Grey:

Quote:

Don't you have any faith in Australian culture Yadda? When exposed to tolerant societies intolerant ones lose.

Winning is a small consolation if you get blown up in the process. I'd rather not invite this fight into Australia. How about you? Also, do you concede that the victory of democracy and perosnal freedom is not inevitable and it must actually be protected? Do you think we would have been better off preventing Nazism for example than defeating it?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #222 - Apr 4^th, 2011 at 7:00pm

Grey wrote on Apr 4^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

Don't you have any faith in Australian culture Yadda? When exposed to tolerant societies intolerant ones lose. Right here your views are the most intolerant and potentially violent by the way. Learn a bit of self control man.

With the Islamic revolutions in Iran and Afghanistan did the tolerant societies get conquered by the Intolerant Islam?

If you think Yadda dislikes Islam you should talk to a few atheists from Iran.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Grey

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #223 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 12:56am

Quote:

Are you conceding that Islam has a political aspect that is in need of reform?

Does Christianity have a political aspect? Is there anything that doesn't have a political aspect? If you'd read the back story you'll see that I've said I supported a war against the taliban before it became popular after 9/11. I think the Wahabists are in the same category of Islamofascists though I prefer the term theofascists.

If Christianity is generally a more moderate faith than Islam, it's not by much. The late 18thC saw the last of the burnings and torture of old ladies, cats and Quakers. That doesn't seem like a long time ago to me but if it does for you contemplate the 'holocaust'. I happened to catch an episode of the 'Larkins' today where a young German was being ostracized by an English village. A community meeting was called and the colonel voted for him to stay. "I thought you would've had enough of fighting that lot" said one matron. The colonel stood up and said, " I wasn't fighting Germans, I was fighting intolerance." That's how it was then and how it is now. It's not Islam that people are afraid of, it's 'otherness'.

Quote:

Freeloader said - Winning is a small consolation if you get blown up in the process. I'd rather not invite this fight into Australia.

If Australia declared its opposition to Islam as a matter of national policy, would that make Australia more of a target for terrorist attacks or less? Would young Muslims in Australia feel more alienated from the rest of the community or less?

There are some Islamofascists, they do make terrorist attacks, some murder their daughters; but these people are pitifully few in number. Have we had attempts at terrorism in Australia? Yes! Have the security forces prevented an incident? Yes! How were the security forces able to stop these people? By surveillance of the entire Muslim population? NO!! The Muslim population of Australia has shown its good faith, as it has in Britain and the USA.

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #224 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:28am

Its not really about Religion is it.
Although you all don't want to admit it.

Its about a Human Condition ...a behaviour that accompanies an existence based upon 'Breeding' as an empowerment over others.
In North America - they are called Rednecks.
In the Middle-East - they are called Moslems.
In Europe - they are (probably) called Orcs.
In Asia - they are (possibly) called Han.

The violent desire to outbreed their adversary that embraces Individualism and the empowerment of Wealth - be they Gay, Jew, Elf or ?

Every nation has its faction of 'Breeders' that display the same form of ill-quality behaviour.

Australia is yet to discover its impoverished 'Breeder' faction that provides a self-sustaining 'domestic' population growth - in all its uncultured, uneducated, primal scream.

...so it has nothing to do with the Religion of Islam at all.

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SUCKING ON MY TITTIES, LIKE I KNOW YOU WANT TO.

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