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The case against Islamic immigration (Read 42012 times)

Yadda

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #240 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:20pm

Grey wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 12:43pm:

What the Bible says about Non-Christians

They are without God.

They are all antichrists.

They should be shunned. Neither marry nor be friends with them.

They should be killed.

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

The Bible and womens rights.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/womens_rights.html

Grey,

Thank you for the OT Bible lesson.

In trying to 'conjure' that murdering unbelievers is kosher doctrine for Christians...

As i said previously, Grey, you are merely demonstrating your utter ignorance, of what OT laws were about, for all to see.

Those laws of Moses [ 'They should be killed.' Dt.13:6-10 ] applied to a people who were in-covenant with God.
Those laws applied to covenant breakers, and only to Hebrew people.

Those laws of Moses DO NOT apply to non-Hebrews.

As i have already explained, here....

"More muslim daily madness"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238715411/458#458
Quote:

Numbers 30:2
If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

...The Hebrew people, were chosen by God, to be a separate, and holy people;

Leviticus 20:24
...I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

It is recorded [in the books of Moses] that after being redeemed from bondage in Egypt, the Hebrew people entered into a covenant with their holy God.

Dictionary;
covenant = =
1 a solemn agreement.
2 [theology] an agreement held to be the basis of a relationship of commitment with God.

The agreement [consent] of the people, was recorded;

"...And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do...."
Exodus 19:5-8

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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bogarde73 Gold Member Offline Anti-Global & Contra Mundum Posts: 18443 Gender:	Re: The case against Islamic immigration Reply #241 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:22pm There are none so blind as those who will not see, which is an adage which fits Grey down to a tee. But that's OK because he's doing a fine job of keeping the issue boiling away.
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21690 A cat with a view	Re: The case against Islamic immigration Reply #242 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:42pm bogarde73 wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:22pm: There are none so blind as those who will not see, which is an adage which fits Grey down to a tee. But that's OK because he's doing a fine job of keeping the issue boiling away. My guess is that Grey is a bint.
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #243 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:49pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:42pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:22pm:

There are none so blind as those who will not see, which is an adage which fits Grey down to a tee.
But that's OK because he's doing a fine job of keeping the issue boiling away.

My guess is that Grey is a bint.

Dictionary;
bint = = a girl or woman.
– ORIGIN C19: from Arab., lit. daughter, girl.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Tony Bradshaw Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 348 Sydney Gender:	Re: The case against Islamic immigration Reply #244 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 2:15pm Who actually decides where immigrants come from?? I really mean who DECIDES how many migrants to Australia come from Islamic countries? Is there some sort of Islamic quota that we take? Who the bugger makes the decison to give Iraqis, Lebs, Afghans etc permanent residency?
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Yadda

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #245 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 2:43pm

Tony Bradshaw wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 2:15pm:

Who actually decides where immigrants come from?? I really mean who DECIDES how many migrants to Australia come from Islamic countries? Is there some sort of Islamic quota that we take? Who the bugger makes the decison to give Iraqis, Lebs, Afghans etc permanent residency?

The executive branch of government [i.e. cabinet, career politicians] has the authority to decide who comes to this country, as migrants.

But my guess is that the executive branch of government [cabinet] would be 'guided' in any final decision, by 'experts' [career public servants] within the public service.

But my advice would be to you, John & Jane Citizen, that if you don't like, how self serving pollies are 'serving' you, then you should make your concerns known, and complain, to your local 'parliamentary representative'.

« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2011 at 3:41pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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spiny mendoza

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #246 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 3:53pm

You can't protect Australia from CHANGE by banning anyone. Change happens.

Yadda, you are old and fearful. On the one hand, you think that by banning members of a faith, or a culture, is necessary to keep you safe and you trust that "the authorities" can accomplish this, somehow. You see that as a necessary step, because if these people are allowed to enter and assimilate, Australians are so stupid and "sheeplike," they will surely fall victim to this newcomers, who you characterized as wolfish. That's an old man talking.

Those are the fears of the impotent.

You should have less faith in govt processes and policies and a bit more in your fellows' intelligence. And, while you're at it, if you have religion, let it comfort you. If your god can't salve your fears, at least you are sure that you'll be better off dead, right? Heaven and all that stuff?

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Yadda

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #247 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 4:06pm

spiny mendoza wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 3:53pm:

You can't protect Australia from CHANGE by banning anyone. Change happens.

Yadda, you are old and fearful. On the one hand, you think that by banning members of a faith, or a culture, is necessary to keep you safe and you trust that "the authorities" can accomplish this, somehow. You see that as a necessary step, because if these people are allowed to enter and assimilate, Australians are so stupid and "sheeplike," they will surely fall victim to this newcomers, who you characterized as wolfish. That's an old man talking.

Those are the fears of the impotent.

You should have less faith in govt processes and policies and a bit more in your fellows' intelligence. And, while you're at it, if you have religion, let it comfort you. If your god can't salve your fears, at least you are sure that you'll be better off dead, right? Heaven and all that stuff?

spinymendoza,

You got it half right.

I am old, but not fearful.

Angry.

Not fearful, at all.

I have seen what is coming.

I have to do this.

But i get 'brownie' points, with my God, for being a watchman.

If you want to know 'what i am about', read Ezekiel 33

Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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spiny mendoza

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #248 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 4:18pm

Jasignature,
Rednecks are poor, ignorant racists, traditionally Southern, who are convinced that their lot in life is due to the presence of whatever minority they can point their finger at. I think that the qualifications have expanded to include most residents of specific states in the U.S. Racism, however, isn't limited to rednecks. Rednecks, despite misuse of the label, are a pretty specific lot.

But, you're right if you think that most of this worry about religion is really more a worry about animal husbandry sorts of issues. We could pin blue ribbons on all these bulls, and they wouldn't get the joke.

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Grey

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #249 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 4:42pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:49pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:42pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 1:22pm:

There are none so blind as those who will not see, which is an adage which fits Grey down to a tee.
But that's OK because he's doing a fine job of keeping the issue boiling away.

My guess is that Grey is a bint.

Dictionary;
bint = = a girl or woman.
– ORIGIN C19: from Arab., lit. daughter, girl.

Aww c'mon stooopid, you can do better than that you only had two choices, or were you just meaning it for insult, up for a display of your judaeo/christian mysogyny, nice beige plummage display.

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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spiny mendoza

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #250 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 4:51pm

Yadda, your anger is from your fear. Excuse me, if I don't read your bible bit. Religious discussions, I learned, are always one-sided, for me. I have this sneaking suspicion that there is a gene for "faith" and I don't have it. I am profoundly "faithless", but I am a pessimistic optimist. While folks are running around ignoring lots of things that seem to be overwhelmingly true, every once in awhile, one of those "truths" is noticed. I'm not talking about REAL truth, mind, because I have a scientific bias, and anything that is cannot be quantified, and reproduced, is not truth to me. I mean something closer to what you mean by "truth", except for the religious stuff. I go beyond refusing it. It's utter nonsense to me.

But, I'd say that most people who adhere to any of the main religious philosophies don't kill their wives or eat their children. I can justify that by pointing at population statistics. Most of them don't give their women parity, and I can justify that argument by demographic studies. Most men don't beat their wives. OR most beaten women don't say that they are beaten.

I used to think that religious tolerance was important. A few years ago I decided that I hate hearing about other peoples' religious beliefs so much, that I'd like to knock their teeth out, rather than listen to them. Now I just say, Keep that shite to yourself, or worry what I'm going to do to you. And I mean it.

Now, I bet that you consider yourself to be civilized. You just met someone who will never make that claim about myself. I may be highly socialized, but I escaped civilizing influences. I do not harbour feelings about "sanctity of life". Yours is worth about as much as mine, and in a population of more than 6 billion, yours is as important to me as a teardrop in the ocean. You will pass with little notice, and so will I. I don't worry about you, or your fears, nor your faith. There's this space between us, and I can turn you off, rather than suffer you. In real space, however, that might not be enough. I'd warn you. In real space, you'd see my face, and you'd be quiet, or not.

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freediver

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #251 - Apr 5^th, 2011 at 9:47pm

Quote:

Does Christianity have a political aspect? Is there anything that doesn't have a political aspect?

Are you equating the two? Do you not see the enourmous gulf in the political 'aspect' of Islam comapred to other religions?

Quote:

If Australia declared its opposition to Islam as a matter of national policy, would that make Australia more of a target for terrorist attacks or less?

That is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting we stand up for freedom and democracy, including in our immigration policy. The extent that this means the same thing really just reveals the extent of the problems inherent to Islam.

Quote:

There are some Islamofascists, they do make terrorist attacks, some murder their daughters; but these people are pitifully few in number.

The people who are fundamentally opposed to freedom and democracy are not pitifully few. That is why freedom and democracy is the exception, not the norm.

Quote:

Grey, Islam is full of such hypocrisy. Ask Abu about it. Apparently stoning someone to death for Apostasy does not contradict the 'no compulsion in religion' thing. What do you think?

Quote:

Racism and sexism are incomprehensible to Muslims

How then do you explain the blatant sexism of Islamic law and custom? Muslims explain it by saying women are different and need protecting. Do you agree with this? When I pushed Abu on the topic he explained that they are equal under Islam because they will be judged equally in the afterlife - ie they are not equal in this life.

Quote:

For all your "research", it should by now be perfectly clear that no single individual can speak on behalf of Islam with any real universal authority.

So we cannot discuss Islam or any religion because we cannot define it?

Quote:

That's what defines me as an Anarchist, I don't give away my sovereignty to say or make decisions to anybody, least of all a smacking idiot like you.

You are trying pretty hard to give it away out of ignorance of the threats to it.

Quote:

"Whosoever ... abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." -- 2 John 9

Does this upset you Grey? There are a lot of verses in the Bible you could have chosen for your example. I am interested to know what made you choose this one.

Quote:

Who actually decides where immigrants come from??

I suspect there are total limits and it largely depends on who applies.

Quote:

You can't protect Australia from CHANGE by banning anyone. Change happens.

You think we can't protect freedom and democracy?

Quote:

I'm not talking about REAL truth, mind, because I have a scientific bias, and anything that is cannot be quantified, and reproduced, is not truth to me.

So it cannot be true that something is funny? Or that you love someone?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grey

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #252 - Apr 6^th, 2011 at 12:27am

freediver wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

[quote]Does Christianity have a political aspect? Is there anything that doesn't have a political aspect

Are you equating the two? Do you not see the enourmous gulf in the political 'aspect' of Islam comapred to other religions??

Yes and Not really no. Muslims might feel that they have a pretty neat strategy but Christianity has been winning the numbers game for 2000 years.

Quote:

If Australia declared its opposition to Islam as a matter of national policy, would that make Australia more of a target for terrorist attacks or less?

That is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting we stand up for freedom and democracy, including in our immigration policy. The extent that this means the same thing really just reveals the extent of the problems inherent to Islam.

It IS what YOU are suggesting. If I was discussing screening as an immigration policy I wouldn't be naming ethnic groups.

Quote:

There are some Islamofascists, they do make terrorist attacks, some murder their daughters; but these people are pitifully few in number.

The people who are fundamentally opposed to freedom and democracy are not pitifully few. That is why freedom and democracy is the exception, not the norm.

Sorry I thought you were referring to Muslims and not including the saddies like China.

Quote:

How does Islam guarantee Human Rights?
Freedom of conscience is laid down by the Qur'an itself: "There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clearly from falsehood; whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God is All-Hearing and All-Knowing." (Qur'an 2:256)

Grey, Islam is full of such hypocrisy. Ask Abu about it. Apparently stoning someone to death for Apostasy does not contradict the 'no compulsion in religion' thing. What do you think?

Well this is where it will get interesting, because I've already started my interrorgation of Abu so we'll see how I go arguing to ends of the same stick without falling on my nose

Quote:

Racism and sexism are incomprehensible to Muslims

How then do you explain the blatant sexism of Islamic law and custom? Muslims explain it by saying women are different and need protecting. Do you agree with this? When I pushed Abu on the topic he explained that they are equal under Islam because they will be judged equally in the afterlife - ie they are not equal in this life.

Did I say that? I don't think so. Anyway I don't believe that all Muslims are not sexist by a long chalk. But I believe that some are capable of interpreting the quo'ran that way.

Quote:

For all your "research", it should by now be perfectly clear that no single individual can speak on behalf of Islam with any real universal authority.

So we cannot discuss Islam or any religion because we cannot define it?

No we can discuss religion. What we can't do is is exclude people from an immigration quota on religious grounds.

Quote:

"Whosoever ... abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." -- 2 John 9 Does this upset you Grey? There are a lot of verses in the Bible you could have chosen for your example. I am interested to know what made you choose this one.

I didn't choose it, it just came as part of a job lot from the web site I linked to.

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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spiny mendoza

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #253 - Apr 6^th, 2011 at 8:47am

Freediver, emotions are not part of the ether. They are manifestations of electro-chemical responses to various stimuli and no less lovely, nor horrendous, for being that, as we experience them. I don't know what you're going for, do you? Emotions are subjective, even when they are induced. So?

Maybe you agree that democracy is a fragile and vulnerable state, and that the citizens of a democratic state are feeble-minded and easily led. That could be true. If it is, banning people isn't likely to save you.

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Soren

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #254 - Apr 6^th, 2011 at 9:28am

spiny mendoza wrote on Apr 5^th, 2011 at 3:53pm:

You can't protect Australia from CHANGE by banning anyone. Change happens.

This is nonsense, of course.

Both immigrants and locals are self-directing human beings. Immigrants behave purposefully. We can also behave purposefully. We can and do manage change, set its directions, prevent or reverse some changes. We can counter others.
If we had no hand in the direction of our lives at any level, we wouldn't have plans, policies, laws, and so forth.

This fatalistic 'change happens, there's nuffin' we can do about it' attitude is very Muslim, by the way. Leads to sloth and ingrained conspiracy theories.

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