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The case against Islamic immigration (Read 42034 times)
Grey
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #270 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 1:19pm
 
You seem to think Yadda, that the absence of 'religion' and its concommittant caste of sharman, ever a political strategy of control, would leave a 'spiritual' (for want of a better) void. I'd say that aint necessarily so. I'd say the adoption of a complete pacifism leaves a void that violence and the violent would, (and have) quickly filled. But the absence of priests simply removes a caste of conmen who claim that you can only approach the unknowable through them. I say that a priest is the ultimate blasphemer.

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If we had no hand in the direction of our lives, and if we felt that we were never effective, we'd just sit back.  I don't expect that Muslims are the only people who realise that "change happens".  It does.  Stasis doesn't.  Static circumstances don't exist, even for ROCKS, Soren.  Some changes are rapid and some are very slow.  In fact, some are barely perceivable, but, change happens.  That's not fantastic, it just IS.

We attempt to manage our circumstances by making laws, policies, smiling, shaking hands, conversing, etc, and what we do, as individuals and in groups, does effect future events and circumstances.   The big question becomes, HOW, and whether or not desired effects have been achieved.  It's not always easy, nor obvious, what the consequences, that we reap, will be.  That's not an argument for a passive existence, mind.  Just an acceptance that we KNOW about UNFORESEEN CONSEQUENCES, and what the road to Hell is paved with. 

I've noticed that a lot of people think that the governments under which they live, are PERMANENT structures, even when they are able to see real changes that have occurred.  Now, that's what I call fantastic.  George Bush, for instance, talked about "a century of alliance" between the U.S. and Japan.  He forgot that the U.S. dropped atomic bombs on Japan.  That's a pretty big blindspot.  Prior to that there were policies that were not friendly, and after that, there were policies that were not friendly, but he was busy ignoring facts.  He'd claimed that Putin was his pal, and he was busy ignoring facts.  Kind of like you do, when you say that recognizing that change happens is "Muslim thinking." 

See, you might think that I'm championing Muslims.  I'm not.  I'm pretty philosophical, myself, but I'm faithless, and I really want everyone to agree with me, and lose their attachment to the concepts of gods and afterlife, because I see them as problematic.  ... and silly... infantile... and a waste of energy.  ... and just beyond annoying for me, personally, since my particular position is NEVER considered to be one that requires respect... while I'm expected to politely listen to the gibberish that spews from religious people.   I am expected to be tolerant.  I quit. 

I don't live my life based on fear, and I feel sorry for people who do.  I don't hold a concept that includes some sentient state after death, so the time that I have is all there is, and I prefer to do other things, contemplate other things that are more immediately "important" than worrying about fantastic takeovers by "aliens".  I know that real nutters are walking around in my real space, but, even though I know people who have suffered the actions of real, undeniable lunatics, even though I KNOW some, in the broad view, those events were extremely rare.  I can only think of one that was possibly foreseeable, and that was one where a "Christian" family, in their zeal to be more thoroughly christian, I guess, handed themselves and their children to a religious cult leader, who decided to kill them all and bury them in his barn. 

The best tool that we have for ensuring harmony, even if it's not MY kind of ideal, is inclusion/COMMUNITY, and intelligent fostering of that drive in ourselves.  Nuts will happen.  Nothing will keep EVERYONE sane.  Nothing will guarantee absolute safety for individuals.
SpinyMendoza - you raised the bar of this debate so far that i was tempted to just shut up.  That speaks for me with an eloquence i've been unable to muster.
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Baronvonrort
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #271 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:44pm
 
Grey wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 5:09pm:
In other words it's $9.7 million spent on a programme to undo the harm done by Islamophobic racists. Shame !


You keep buying this right wing Islamic fascist propaganda.

Do Christians/buddhists/jews/bahai/voodoo/hindu ever throw the racist slur to silence their critics or are they smart enough to realise religion is not a race.

Islam is an ideology a set of beliefs that guide a muslim on how they should live life it has nothing to do with genetics.
Muslims are not a race of people the fact is muslims come from every race so criticism of Islam should not be mislabelled as racism.

Islamophobe is another bullshit word invented by muslims to silence their critics.
Islam is an Ideology it is a fallacy that you can be phobic of an ideology.
Phobia-(n) a persisent,irrational fear of a specific object,activity,or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Phobia
Islam is irrational i do not fear it and i do not avoid it i enjoy exposing the bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit so how can you possibly say i fit the definition of phobic with Islam?

The term Islamophobe is divisive,inflammatory and it is used to silence valid criticism of Islam.
Do you ever hear christians calling people christianophobes or communists calling their critics communistophobes?

Islam is the only belief that uses words like Racist and Islamophobe to silence their critics.
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Grey
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #272 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 3:34pm
 
Quote:
Wiki - Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences between different groups of people, although anyone may be discriminated against on an ethnic or cultural basis, independently of their somatic differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnicity discrimination.


Let's not get bogged down in semantics, obviously religions don't have a skin colour. Nobody has  done more to turn 'racism' into a generic term than the Jews. A goodly proportion of Jewish people identify being Jewish as both a religion and 'race' and most certainly do scream 'racism' or (even more confusingly as semites are a language group including some Arabs) antisemitism.

Essentially, believing that all Buddhists are benign, smiley people with a rather smug air about them, because the only Buddhist you get to see is the Dali Llahama on tv, is the same as believing all black people are muggers because one mugged your mother once.


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You keep buying this right wing Islamic fascist propaganda.


You mean Islamofascists? I don'r see any reason to back away from that word. The Talib's, the Iranian theocracy and the Wahabists certainly are. Nothing wrong with the word 'Islamophobia' either, which means to have an overblown fear of the Islamofascists.
I have worrying concerns about all religions, I'm just not going to allow those fears to make me over into what I reject about them. To Paraphrase Steve Bell, erasing freedom to preserve freedom is like shagging for chastity.

http://www.belltoons.co.uk/bellworks/index.php/leaders/2003/1884-19-2-03_POPEWIT...

The USA's ruling elite has long been 'coomunistophobic' but the word wont catch because it's not catchy.
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« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2011 at 3:45pm by Grey »  

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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #273 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 3:35pm
 
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Yadda wrote
IMO, there is probably nothing more unethical in the world today, that the 'humanist' worldview, and those who promote so called liberal 'ethics'.

IMO, this generation of mankind has lost the ability to discern between good and evil.

The Judeao-Christian standards and morality, that guided our present culture in its formative period, has been almost entirely abandoned.
Why is that?

Just take a moment, and look at the total moral mess the Western world is in today.
IMO, this is the consequence largely, of the influence of 'academics' and godless social 'theorists'!
IMO, almost all of the 'humanist', and social engineering type areas of academia, are clearly, divorced from reality.
They are living in a la-la-land, and are unethically ignoring the consequences of their own mistaken social experiments.
They are engrossed in a politically correct idiocy, which is a denial of the real world consequences of their own moral 'inadequacy'.
i.e.
These people who promote 'humanist values' are totally, morally corrupt, and they seem to exhibit a hatred for truth.
And why?
Because the truth confronts and exposes the error of their claptrap [<--- that's a technical term] social theories.

Humanist, and liberal ethics seem embrace an idea, and want to teach us, that man is naturally good.

Today, our children are taught that it is wrong to try to 'discriminate' between good and evil, and to reject what is evil.
Today, they and we, are taught that essentially, good and evil do not exist.
And we are taught that all people are equally like us.
Today, those who abandon standards, and moral discernment are said to be 'tolerant'.
And we are taught that to differentiate the merits of different cultures, is wrong, and 'racist'.

IMO, refusing to condemn the wicked, so as to 'avoid conflict', and so as to promote 'social harmony', is not an ethical position.
It is idiocy.

IMO, 'humanism', teaches mankind, to abandon all spiritual discernment.
IMO, such a position, teaches mankind, to embrace an empty, worldly, 'humanist' 'value' system, a 'religion', a political system, which uses the authority of a false 'righteousness', to rule over a 'blind', worldly directed mankind, imo.

'Humanism' spiritually guts us, imo.

We are taught, to abandon all spiritual discernment, and instead, embrace an 'empty', worldly 'value' system.
And 'humanism' often seeks to puff up our self pride, but leaves us without any discernment, and without a moral compass and without any spiritual hope.
We are spiritually, dumbed down by 'humanist' values.


Clearly you're not on top of what goes on in Academia. They do indeed teach right and wrong; it is mostly left-leaning ideas as to what they believe is correct, but nevertheless, they do teach an ethos of some description. Leftists are not tolerant at all; they may be towards some things, but definitely not all.

We've had this discussion before; your anger at the world is due to placing morals as the highest order of existence. If you look at the world purely through a moral lens, then of course the world is going look like sh*t, because you will be looking for 'evil' everywhere.

Although I may disagree with some "liberal ideas", I'll give them credit for at least trying to ground an ethos in the phenomenal world (as opposed to the noumenal). This is where I find Christianity and Islam a joke. Grounding morality in something one can't hear, see, or fathom? Is one's mind so discombobulated that they try and look for grounding to act outside time, space, and causality? This is utterly illogical and impractical.  

For any kind of ethics to be taken seriously it would have to be grounded in some form of pragmatism, something tangible, something that people can see and know that it will benefit them in some way. Just saying "god says so" is immature. We've been through the Enlightenment, we should at least acknowledge the truths that emerged from therein. You speak of truth, but ground it in a theory conjured up 2,000 years ago and thoroughly debunked in the 18th and 19th centuries.


See, I don't fear Muslims because I know Australians wouldn't for a second consider putting down their beer, football, child-rearing, friendships etc. for some invisible sky-pixie. Australians are happy enough, generally, to continue on as they have been. This is why there are no great revolutions in Australia, or any big new socio-political movements, people are content with the way things are.




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spiny mendoza
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #274 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 4:49pm
 
But the way things "are" will change.
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Jaykaye_09
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #275 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:34pm
 
Quick question. Has anybody had to actually "change" the way they've gone about their regular (or even irregular) business as a result of, well, this whole Islam 'thing'?
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« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:45pm by Jaykaye_09 »  

If I don't respond to a post directed toward me, it's probably because I've gone offline, not because I'm rude.&&&&Or maybe I don't like you. In which case, sod off. Ta.
 
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Grey
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #276 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:41pm
 
Jaykaye_09 wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:34pm:
Quick question. Has anybody had to actually "change" the way they've gone about their regular (or even irregular) business as a result of, well, anything?


That doesn't compute JayKaye? Obviously everybody has experienced change for a myriad reasons.  Huh
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Jaykaye_09
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #277 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:47pm
 
Grey wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:41pm:
Jaykaye_09 wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 6:34pm:
Quick question. Has anybody had to actually "change" the way they've gone about their regular (or even irregular) business as a result of, well, anything?


That doesn't compute JayKaye? Obviously everybody has experienced change for a myriad reasons.  Huh


Yeah, I edited it. I'm not sure why I wrote as a "result of well, anything".

Basically, what changes have been forced upon individuals here as a result of this supposed (or real as the case might be) increase in Islam in Australia?

Just curious to see, hyperbole aside, how this has actually impacted people here (if at all).
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If I don't respond to a post directed toward me, it's probably because I've gone offline, not because I'm rude.&&&&Or maybe I don't like you. In which case, sod off. Ta.
 
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freediver
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #278 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 8:54pm
 
Quote:
really I don't see an enormous gulf between our views


But you would happily give up my freedom for secularism. The Muslims would give up my freedom for Islam. It looks to me like your views are closer to Abu's than mine.

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while I'm expected to politely listen to the gibberish that spews from religious people


Says who?

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That means that I am an extremist, and I know it.  I don't particularly think that extremists should force their views down other people's throats.  I prefer for people to think, rather than react...mostly. 


So you are a polite and thoughtful extremist?

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For any kind of ethics to be taken seriously it would have to be grounded in some form of pragmatism, something tangible, something that people can see and know that it will benefit them in some way.


Are you arguing that people cannot take religion seriously?

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Basically, what changes have been forced upon individuals here as a result of this supposed (or real as the case might be) increase in Islam in Australia?


Been on a plane flight lately?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Jaykaye_09
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #279 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 10:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 8:54pm:
Been on a plane flight lately?


Yeah. It was cheaper than the first I ever went on.

There were also a series of security procedures in place which don't seem to be grounded in any real threat. Incidents of "terrorism" weren't frequent enough to justify the sort of "action" that we've seen, nor is this "action" likely to be THAT effective in preventing further attacks, should they occur (as infrequently as that might be).

Besides, if an extra half hour is added prior to boarding a flight, and the inability to carry on board a bottle of water, is the best example of an "adjustment" to your life that you can cite, then frankly, it's not that big a deal.
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If I don't respond to a post directed toward me, it's probably because I've gone offline, not because I'm rude.&&&&Or maybe I don't like you. In which case, sod off. Ta.
 
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Grey
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #280 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 11:36pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 8:54pm:
But you would happily give up my freedom for secularism. The Muslims would give up my freedom for Islam. It looks to me like your views are closer to Abu's than mine.


Given the meaning of secular that's not likely, presuming you're not one of the insatiably rich Grin



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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #281 - Apr 7th, 2011 at 11:39pm
 
Jaykaye_09 wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 10:48pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 8:54pm:
Been on a plane flight lately?


Yeah. It was cheaper than the first I ever went on.

There were also a series of security procedures in place which don't seem to be grounded in any real threat. Incidents of "terrorism" weren't frequent enough to justify the sort of "action" that we've seen, nor is this "action" likely to be THAT effective in preventing further attacks, should they occur (as infrequently as that might be).

Besides, if an extra half hour is added prior to boarding a flight, and the inability to carry on board a bottle of water, is the best example of an "adjustment" to your life that you can cite, then frankly, it's not that big a deal.


till muslims started to bomb planes i did not have to conform to their results

the cvuts, they can go back to their islamic backward countries
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #282 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 2:21am
 
Jaykaye, I agree that most of the impact of policies surrounding fear of terrorists is dumb and aimed at fostering fear and acquiescence to a more authoritarian presence.  I never sat next to anyone in burning underwear, before.  I'd sound the alarm and try to help him, and probably would sympathize with someone who wanted a smoke that badly.  At the point that it was made clear that the underpants were meant to explode, I'd sneer.  I couldn't help it.
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #283 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 2:44am
 
Freediver, yes, I'm a thoughtful, sometimes courteous extremist.  I detest regret, so I try to avoid it, and I'm lazy, so I don't waste my energy on stupid shite.  Or even stupid Shites.
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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #284 - Apr 8th, 2011 at 2:46am
 
NEWSFLASH: Moslems are freaking out about how more and more and more Australians are fighting over them.
'
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SUCKING ON MY TITTIES, LIKE I KNOW YOU WANT TO.
 
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