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Why don't you tell us Grey? Do you think think they were moderates? Why are you unable to clarify what you mean when you use the term moderate to describe muslims?

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In that case, no I do not think most muslims are moderate. They may not aspire to rule the world themselves, but they aspire it for their co-religionists. Furthermore, everyone seeks some degree of power, even if it is merely self determination. It is what people would do with that power that makes them moderate or extreme. Ask a 'moderate' muslim what sort of rules they would have in an ideal world about democracy, freedom of religion, equality of women before the law etc. You appear to be projecting your own views of mdoeration onto Muslims, justified by little more than the fact that they can manage to hold down a job like everyone else. This does not make them the same as you and you are being no less naive than someone who asserts a Nazi is moderate if he can pay off a mortgage and refrain from personally slaughtering jews.

I suspect that what you fail to realise is that democracy and personal freedom require more than being tolerated if they are to survive. They require active protection. Those who fail to do so inevitably loose their freedom and their right to govern themselves. You would have us trade freedom and democracy for tolerance out of ignorance of the threat. Being able to tolerate democracy and freedom does not make someone moderate. It merely makes them patient.

Grey wrote on Mar 31^st, 2011 at 7:52pm:


Islam is full of non-negotiables that are against everything that may make your life sweet, optimistic, potentially worthwhile. It is incompatible with every basic assumption and foundation value of your life - assuming you are not a Muslim already.

There are 1.57 Billion Muslims in the world and 2.1 billion Christians, if they all want to be jihadists and crusaders it should be epic. But apart from a handful of plane hijackers and another handful of bombers the last decade has seen a lot more Muslims fighting Muslims and Christians fighting Christians. Which is a bit strange if all muslims are so alike you'd think they were all clones.

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I'm perfectly serious. The world has seen too many of these pogroms. Some leader starts convincing people that the others are conspiring to enslave them and before y'know it the 'people' have made the 'others' a victim of their own paranoia.

It's bloody stupid and you're both far to well educated and secure to be pushing this truck of garbage.

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In what context? If an Atheist, a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim are moving fridges they pretty much all agree a trolley is a good idea. If the question is one of religious belief then they all answer as you would expect but differently. The vast majority don't want a fight about religion if they like you. Being nice to people is the best method of defence. There isn't any gods so just relax and enjoy your life.

grey,


/big sarc off




Your bible quotes post....
"The case against Islamic immigration"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1300943110/89#89


My response....
More muslim daily madness
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238715411/458#458

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 1:06am:





Lets pretend that there are no rapists, murderers, and,    ....no good moslems.

Yes, lets all put on our rose tinted glasses, and the world will look so, so, much nicer.

Honest, it will!!!
/sarc off



THE REALITY.....

The Jihad [violence against non-moslems], is the path towards a Sharia system, and it is religious conduct which is justified by all good moslems.

EXAMPLE #1,


http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019399.php

And where does that Pakistani cleric GET such insane ideas from ??????

Hmmmm ?????

Hmmmm ?????

Hmmmm ?????


Let me think.

Oh yes.

Such insane ideas come from ISLAM's 'mainstream' foundation religious texts - the Koran and the Hadith.
EXAMPLE #2,

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

n.b.
Grey,
The contents of the Koran, are the words that moslems live by.

Idiot.



+++

Grey's words,



Dictionary;
paranoia = =
1 a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance.
2 unjustified suspicion and mistrust of others.

Dictionary;
phobia = = an extreme or irrational fear of something.


Grey,

Question;

Is 'Yadda' phobic and paranoid?

Or is 'Grey' an idiot, and someone who is averse to acknowledging truth [i.e. averse to acknowledging objective 'REALITY'] ????







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Yes, yes, in 1939, the world should have appeased Hitler and Nazi Germany.

So, sensible, that would have been.

BUT, it is so sad, that we can't go back in time, and avoid WWII, and all have lived in glorious harmony.

But hey!!!!

We can avoid war with criminals today!!!!

All we have to do, is appease moslems, and a new age of world peace and harmony will dawn.

Honest!!!!

Surely the new utopia age of human peace and co-operation can not be more than five minutes, or so, away ????

All we have to do is to appease wicked people.

/sarc off



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IMO, ppl like yourself [Grey] seem to want a 'peace' at any cost.

But, imo morality, or life, doesn't work like that.

Peace comes from defending open truth.

But your logic seems to be;
'Wanting' something, will produce it.

Or;
'If we give bullies what they want, surely, they will be satisfied, and leave us alone.'

They won't.

If you give a bully/thug, what he wants, he will come back again, and again.

And eventually he will take from you, everything that you own.

And the last thing the bully/the thug, will take from you, is your life.






IMO, this generation has lost the ability to discern between good and evil, between truth and falsehood.

As individuals, we all know, or as adults, we should know by now!, that if we walk away from truth, we will [always!] reap confusion in our lives.





We [who seek peace] are kidding ourselves [we are living in la la land!], if we believe that aggression, or violence, is 'overcome', by our surrender to it!

Or if we believe that the appeasement of evil and wicked men, is a way to peace.

The appeasement of evil [men], does not lead to peace.

The aggression and violence of evil men, is not overcome, by our surrender, to the designs of those evil men.

That path leads only to slavery, and death.

How is peace achieved, in the real world?

Peace comes through sacrifice, and our willingness to fight for truth, and to fight for what is right[eous].

And, judgement.

Peace among men comes as a consequence of righteous judgement.

Peace among men comes when wicked men are judged, and when their fellows [other wicked men] come to understand that their wicked actions, will bring judgement upon them.

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2011 at 11:28am:


Mohammad Wahhab was a Islamic scholar he did not do anything innovative in fact none of the popular scholars did anything outside of the Quran and hadiths.
So tell me how do the Wahabbi differ from the Salafi or Sunni?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al-Wahhab

The Saudi are usually Salafi/Sunni/Wahhabi and like the Sufi they all follow the Bukhari hadiths the Shia differ in the fact they dont respect Bukhari and have their own hadiths.
The sunni/salafi/Wahhabi all consider the shia as deviant because they have their own hadiths which is where the secterian violence comes from over this doctrinal difference.
Since the Sufi/Salafi/Sunni/Wahhabi are the majority sects and shia are a minority it would be fair to say the majority will take notice of what the grand mufti of saudi says it is one of the 5 pillars of Islam to visit Mecca to see a black rock in a vagina and throw stones at satan.
One of the 5 pillars of Islam commands muslims to visit Mecca which is the homeland of Islam.

You should learn the truth about Jihad instead of listening to the dawaganda from muslims they have lied to you.
See what this Sheik says about Jihad he makes you look somewhat ignorant on this subject.
 "There are 13 types of Jihad and whoever dies without having fought or having resolved to fight has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy".
The Quran has a word for these so called moderate muslims it calls them hypocrites!
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20214/jihad

Since you are keen to drag christians into a thread on Islam lets compare them.
When did the christians stop killing heretics?
Muslims kill heretics and have a death penalty for apostasy-you cannot leave Islam.

When did the christians stop killing people for blasphemy?
Muslims still kill people for blasphemy they killed a politician in pakistan who opposed the blasphemy law.Its blasphemy to oppose the blasphemy law.

When did the christians stop killing gays?
Ahmadinejad says there are no gays in Iran- they hang them.

How do the christians react if you burn a bible?
Did you hear the Indonesian President say burning a Quran in Florida threatens world peace?
Its a death penalty for desecrating the Quran.

What about drawing pictures are the christians cool with that?
Muslims kill people over drawings.

What about wife beating we throw people in jail for that
Islam allows wife beating if you fear disobedience.
http://quran.com/4/34

Muslims claim the Quran is the words from Allah so with Quran 4:34 it appears Allah the most mercifull has given men permission to beat their wives