Australian Politics Forum - Burqua ban start on Monday

Foolosophy

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #120 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 12:06am

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2011 at 10:02pm:

Foolosophy wrote on Apr 16^th, 2011 at 9:49pm:

Soren is a very Jealous creature

SOREN LOOK AT THE FUTURE

LOOK AT WHAT YOU HATE THE MOST

http://australianmuseum.net.au/Uploads/Images/6264/T12.2b%20solarconcentrating%2...

How is showing a man (uncovered face) looking up at whatever that is have any relevance to the burkha debate?

Nothing at all

I just like Soren as a person

I trust him implicitly

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Grey

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #121 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 5:29am

freediver wrote on Apr 17^th, 2011 at 9:48pm:

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I believe the benefits of banning the burqa outweight the negatives freediver.

What are these benefits? Do you imagine these women will somehow be free because the government takes away their rights?

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I don't ignore that there are... difficulties imposing such a ban.

What do you mean by difficulties? Hypocrisy?

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I think you could say that my position is that while I like the idea, I think that banning the burqa is impractical. I don't think that you can have legislation that targets only Muslims. I think that you could legislate to ban 'religious clothing' but you'd have to include monks, nuns and orthodox Jews at al.

So what exactly do you propose? Even broader control over what people can wear in public? What are the benefits of denying people such a fundamental human right? Do you hope to rid the world of the scourge of religion by banning religious clothing?

I think I've been quite clear and that you're being deliberatley obtuse

The benefit is the removal of the public flag of Islamofascism. The difficulties are in frameworking legislation that isn't ridiculous. I'd like to ban all religious clothing but accept that would create more trouble than it eliminates.

That doesn't make your arguments right. It's still clear to me that the burqa is a potent symbol of an oppressive patriarchal culture. And that clothing that is divisive is clothing that will cause trouble. Two peoples have suffered persecution throughout European history more than any other. The Roma and the Jews. The history of that persecution is just too horrible to contemplate. The underlying cause is the rigidity of those cultures. They both exude a certain contempt for everybody else. I'm not saying that excuses the great pogroms, the wholesale slaughtering of those peoples. It clearly doesn't. But people have difficulty coping with rejection and those two cultures do reject all others. By custom and clothing they remain other. We could do without another group like that, or more to the point, here in Australia where we don't have that problem, we don't need it. We can cope with Muslims always have, but the Wahabists and Talibs are out to rock the boat. The burqa is them.

But it would take a better person than me to draw up legislation that would work within a reasonable framework.

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freediver

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #122 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 7:33pm

I started a new thread about the broader issues you raise:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1303119265/0

Quote:

The benefit is the removal of the public flag of Islamofascism

It is not the public flag of Islamofascism. It is merely one of hundreds of symbols you could declare to be the flag next time you want to ban something. Even if it were a flag, what benefit would there be in banning it? Can you give a single histoprical example where something positive has been achieved by banning a flag or symbol? Perhaps you think islamofascism is going to disappear overnight because you have banned the burqa?

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The difficulties are in frameworking legislation that isn't ridiculous.

Any legislation that targets a symbol rather than the reality and which punishes the victim rather than the perpetrator is going to be rediculous. The problem is not in the frameworking, but in what you want to achieve. There is no sensible way to frame it because it is stupid.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grey

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #123 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 8:16pm

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 7:33pm:

It is not the public flag of Islamofascism. It is merely one of hundreds of symbols you could declare to be the flag next time you want to ban something.

You talk like I try to ban something different every day; nothing could be further from the truth.

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Even if it were a flag, ( Wink

) what benefit would there be in banning it? Can you give a single histoprical example where something positive has been achieved by banning a flag or symbol?

Well there's the words b**ng and n***er etc. Some would say that's sweeping them undre the carpet, others would say that's the best place for them.

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Perhaps you think islamofascism is going to disappear overnight because you have banned the burqa?

No but I'd call it a step in the right direction.

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The difficulties are in frameworking legislation that isn't ridiculous.

Quote:

Any legislation that targets a symbol rather than the reality and which punishes the victim rather than the perpetrator is going to be rediculous. The problem is not in the frameworking, but in what you want to achieve. There is no sensible way to frame it because it is stupid.

Symbols are real otherwise they wouldn't be used. Every word we write is a symbol for a feeling that we translate into a thought and project as a vibration in the air. A swastika 'says' something. I don't see Islamist women who wear the burqa in Australia as victims. I see them as Islamofascism's useful idiots.

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freediver

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #124 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:01pm

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You talk like I try to ban something different every day

Like all religious clothing? Like all 'divisive' clothing? Forgive me for being a bit skeptical.

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Well there's the words b**ng and n***er etc

I hear them all the time on TV.

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No but I'd call it a step in the right direction.

So explain again the benefit? You keep mentioning it, but have yet to say what it actually is.

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Symbols are real otherwise they wouldn't be used.

Yes, but they are still only symbols. Can you give me a single historical example where banning symbols achieved some kind of benefit? It sounds to be like you have not even gotten round to defining your problem and are groping in the dark for a solution.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #125 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:26pm Quote: Can you give me a single historical example where banning symbols achieved some kind of benefit? Free I'll attempt that when you can tell me of one thing in history that didn't lead to unforseen consequences.
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #126 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:28pm But for a start there's tobacco advertising
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48871 At my desk.	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #127 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:30pm Tobacco advertising is a symbol?
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #128 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:35pm It is when you don't ban tobacco.
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Foolosophy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1171 Australia Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #129 - Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:08pm Grey wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:28pm: But for a start there's tobacco advertising what do you mean?
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freediver

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #130 - Apr 19^th, 2011 at 9:09pm

Grey wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:35pm:

It is when you don't ban tobacco.

If I were to go around in public with a picture of a cigarrette on my shirt, would I get arrested? Do you have one single historical example of something being banned because of it's symbolism, with a beneficial outcome?

The whole point of the restrictions on tobacco companies are to maintain people's right to smoke, while undermining the profitability of selling tobacco. In contrast, in the case of the burqa, you invented the symbolism so you could justify denying people their rights. Your line of reasoning could be used to justify a ban on any personal freedom, merely by associating it with something you don't like.

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« Last Edit: Apr 19^th, 2011 at 9:18pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #131 - Apr 19^th, 2011 at 11:53pm freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 9:09pm: Your line of reasoning could be used to justify a ban on any personal freedom, merely by associating it with something you don't like. Sounds fun How about I name the symbol and you tell what it associates with? Bananas
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48871 At my desk.	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #132 - Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 11:56am So Grey, how about that list of things you want to ban? Seems to be getting longer by the day.
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