Australian Politics Forum - Burqua ban start on Monday

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #90 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:20am It is not about the clothing. It is about the face.
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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #91 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:24am

The answre isn't to ban it outright - the answer is to remove laws that put their religious customs over and above the customs of our culture.

Let them continue to wear it if they please, but reinstate my right to mock, deride and deny service to them for doing so. Banning outright is one thing, but coercing them into choosing to abandon it for themselves is a better option.

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In the fullness of time...

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darkhall67

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #92 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:28am

... wrote on Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:24am:

The answre isn't to ban it outright - the answer is to remove laws that put their religious customs over and above the customs of our culture.

Let them continue to wear it if they please, but reinstate my right to mock, deride and deny service to them for doing so. Banning outright is one thing, but coercing them into choosing to abandon it for themselves is a better option.

Coercion is better than legislation?

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #93 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:30am

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:28am:

... wrote on Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:24am:

The answre isn't to ban it outright - the answer is to remove laws that put their religious customs over and above the customs of our culture.

Let them continue to wear it if they please, but reinstate my right to mock, deride and deny service to them for doing so. Banning outright is one thing, but coercing them into choosing to abandon it for themselves is a better option.

Coercion is better than legislation?

Which is another way of saying 'choice is better than no choice'?

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In the fullness of time...

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #94 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:49am It is not a choice for them to make. They evidently need to be told.
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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #95 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:50am And they can be told by the community, not by giving the government the power to dictate what its citizens must wear, and thereby setting a dangerous precedent.
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Soren

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #96 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 11:09am

The laws are created to avoid street disputes and brawls.
If they are stupoid enough to disregard others around them and pretend that somehow they have a right to ignore all aothers around them - then they need to be told by the law (the expression of the community's expectations). It is better for the police to deal with them than to let the tough eggs loose on them.

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mavisdavis Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1512	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #97 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 8:45pm Freedom is all well and good untill it affects, or offends others.
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Foolosophy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1171 Australia Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #98 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 8:48pm mavisdavis wrote on Apr 14^th, 2011 at 8:45pm: Freedom is all well and good untill it affects, or offends others. others = corporations
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mavisdavis Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1512	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #99 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 8:57pm Foolosophy wrote on Apr 14^th, 2011 at 8:48pm: mavisdavis wrote on Apr 14^th, 2011 at 8:45pm: Freedom is all well and good untill it affects, or offends others. others = corporations WHAT?
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103841 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #100 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 9:30pm For 2 days the French news hasn't even mentioned this Burqua ban. I think they are trying to play it down so as not to stir up trouble with the muzzies.
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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 58299 Here Gender:	Re: Burqua ban start on Monday Reply #101 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 9:40pm A lot of fuss about some frog stupidity.
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freediver

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #102 - Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:07pm

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The conservative islamic women were CERTAINLY NOT free.

So only people who share your views are free? No-one could have the opposite views unless they were a slave?

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They may not be allowed to decide for themselves in their restrictive fascistic households

But this is not about what they may wear in the house. It is about what they may wear out on the street.

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they ARE allowed to be free when they leave their house. When they go shopping.

No they aren't. Denying someone the choice so that they are 'free' to do what you would prefer for them is not freedom. It is only freedom if they choose it for themselves. Why is this freedom thing so hard to comprehend?

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I dont have the freedom to keep my children and my wife chained and naked in a basement as I apply electrodes to their genitals.

WHY ARE MT RIGHTS BEING TAKEN AWAY?????

They are not. You obviously have no clue what they are.

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Ther'es nothing "realer" than extinguishing superstitious and cultural nonsense.

But isn't it 'cultural nonsense' that justifies forcing these women to expose themselves? Sounds to me like you are merely swapping one cultural nonsense for another one.

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You ever think what it felt like to be black and see a kid running around in a KKK hood? Or be Jewish and see little SS people?

Like dwarves in SS uniforms? Better ban WWII movies before the thought police come knocking hey?

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And yet you have no problem banning fine old anglo saxon words on the grounds that they might offend people. Words are symbolic too.

Again, you turn freedom on it's head. This is a privately owned forum. Kicking you out, or anything else, is not a denial of your rights.

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Where does it say that they have the right to go around the public space hiding their faces?

Soren are you suggesting that we need a long list of all the billions of things that are our rights? It is our right, whether it is written down or not.

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It is not up to these women to decide for themselves

It should be.

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It is not a freedom of conscience issue.

Yes it is. You try desperately to make it about something else. You chop and change and make it about anything else, hoping something might stick. But you are wrong and nothing will ever stick.

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I am amzed that you don't see the problem with a government dictating what clothing we are allowed to wear!

I can't understand it either. This is not a complicated issue. It's about as simple as it gets.

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It is not about the clothing. It is about the face.

So what are you chopping and changing to now Soren? Meaningless gibberish?

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It is not a choice for them to make. They evidently need to be told.

Seriously Soren, are you joking now?

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The laws are created to avoid street disputes and brawls.

So the government should ban things that upset crazy old people so we don't have arguments about who is most upset?

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If they are stupoid enough to disregard others around them and pretend that somehow they have a right to ignore all aothers around them

Newsflash Soren - you cannot force people to pay attention to you. If a woman thinks you are not even worth acknowledging, that is her right. If she doesn't want to look at you, that is her right. If she doesn't want to speak to you, that is her right. If she wants to cover herself so you cannot even see her, that is her right. None of these things do you any real harm, only your ego. Your ego has no rights.

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Freedom is all well and good untill it affects, or offends others.

So perception of offence is all it takes to strip away our freedoms? It doesn't have to involve any real harm, just someone complaining about it?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Jaykaye_09

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #103 - Apr 15^th, 2011 at 12:57am

darkhall67 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2011 at 10:01pm:

[quote]They may not be allowed to decide for themselves in their restrictive fascistic households

BUT

they ARE allowed to be free when they leave their house. When they go shopping.

They always were allowed to be "free" though. But in certain instances, such as that you allude to, a dominant figure in their lives restricted their freedom. As they will continue to do, regardless of whatever laws happen to be in place.

Only now, the attitudes that dictate some (perhaps many) of these women are forced to wear these coverings, are going to be driven further underground.

And meanwhile those who do want to wear it (and they do exist), will be forced to do otherwise by their government.

Dunno, just smells kind of funky to me.

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If I don't respond to a post directed toward me, it's probably because I've gone offline, not because I'm rude.&&&&Or maybe I don't like you. In which case, sod off. Ta.

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Soren

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Re: Burqua ban start on Monday
Reply #104 - Apr 15^th, 2011 at 7:30am

freediver wrote on Apr 14^th, 2011 at 10:07pm:

But isn't it 'cultural nonsense' that justifies forcing these women to expose themselves?

Nothing I or others say will 'stick', FD, because when I have to argue against your notion that the starting point of this issue is 'forcing women to expose themselves', then no reason or common sense has any hope of having a voice.

For you to say that opposing alien and confronting traditions is 'forcing them to expose themselves' is just plain stupid. I am not even sure whether you see it as clever rhetoric or are completely cloth-eared and oblivious to its ridiculousness.

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