Australian Politics Forum - the right to choose what to wear

Soren

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #120 - Apr 27^th, 2011 at 9:37pm

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 6:12pm:

No I am not Soren. You seem especially confused about this issue. If I oppose attempts by anti-Islamists to take away our freedom of choice, that does not mean I support attempts by Islamists to take away our freedom of choice. I am not sure why this is so difficult to communicate. I have said it plenty of times. Perhaps you are creating a false dichotomy in your mind, where our freedom will be denied regardless and we can only choose the Islamic version or the anti-Islamic version. We do not need to do this. I choose neither. I choose freedom. It's that simple.

Well, Islam is, like, totally so not interested in freedom of choice, as the kids like to say nowadays. You are labouring under a great big naive misunderstanding. Your standards of freedom have been undermined and reduced already in your own country by Islam - see my previous post. And they will continue to be undermined and reduced with every concession you give in the name of freedom.

You are a bit like the Chinese who gave away the powder in their fireworks because they could not possible imagine any other use for it but as a source of amusement. When it came back as gunpowder, it was too late.

Likewise, you give them freedom of choice because you can't imagine what else they may use it for but to dress up funny, like you would - but what freedom you give away to Islam will continue to come back as unfreedom.

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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #121 - Apr 27^th, 2011 at 9:38pm

Quote:

Are you seriously suggesting that the murder of Rushdie's Japanese translator, the burning down of Danish and Norwegian Embassies because of ome cartoons, the seemingly endless London processions demanding the beheading of those who insult Islam have no effect whatsoever in Australia just because they did not actually take place in Australia??

No. In fact, if you read the passage you quoted and responded, you would see that I started it by agreeing with you.

Quote:

Well, WTF are you suggesting then?

If you read the bit you didn't quote, you would see what I was suggesting. I will repost it for you:

none of them would be resolved by denying ourselves the right to choose what to wear

Quote:

Well, Islam is, like, totally so not interested in freedom of choice, as the kids like to say nowadays. You are labouring under a great big naive misunderstanding. Your standards of freedom have been undermined and reduced already in your own country by Islam - see my previous post. And they will continue to be undermined and reduced with every concession you give in the name of freedom.

How does defending the freedom to choose what to wear undermine my freedoms?

Quote:

You are a bit like the Chinese who gave away the powder in their fireworks because they could not possible imagine any other use for it but as a source of amusement. When it came back as gunpowder, it was too late.

OK then, enlighten me. What have i failed to forsee in defending my right to choose what to wear? Or are you sugggesting that you don't know either what could go wrong and we should give up our freedoms 'just in case'?

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #122 - Apr 27^th, 2011 at 9:45pm WHat about the pertinent issue of let them wear what they like and let others say about it and do about it what they like, ie refuse service or entry to or engagement with the wearers. Otherwise it is a case of one way freedom of choice and that's no freedom.
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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #123 - Apr 27^th, 2011 at 9:50pm

Quote:

WHat about the pertinent issue of let them wear what they like and let others say about it and do about it what they like, ie refuse service or entry to or engagement with the wearers.

That is an interesting suggestion. I believe we already have those rights, within limitations. You cannot for example go and harass or beat up a woman because you don't like her clothes.

Are you suggesting we change the existing laws, and if so, in a general sense, or only with respect to Islamic clothing?

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Soren

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #124 - Apr 27^th, 2011 at 10:14pm

Of course we should change exiting laws. Some generally - no face covering in offices, schools, shops, airports, public transport etc regardless of whether it is a helmet, a niqab, a medieval visor or a koala suit except if agreed to by the owner of the premises.
Vilification laws should also be amended to make truth a defence and remove 'being offended' as a basis of legal action (the grow a thicker skin amendment). Atempts to legislate for civility are counterproductive. Legsilating to protect any religion from criticism is legislating unfreedom. Vilification of religion should be removed from the books in any guise. If you think Islam/Judaism/Hinduism/Christianity etc are evil creeds, you should be free to say so, unharassed. If you think the niqab or the hashidic garb are the stupidest things you've ever seen, go ahead, feel free to say so.

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Foolosophy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1171 Australia Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #125 - Apr 27^th, 2011 at 10:25pm OH NO IT'S SERIOUS SOREN he's a handsome chap isn't he ladies and gentlemen
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48871 At my desk.	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #126 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:21pm Quote: except if agreed to by the owner of the premises A lot of the premises you mentioned are not private. Quote: Atempts to legislate for civility are counterproductive. Weren't you recently arguing in favour of legislating civility?
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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30072 Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #127 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 11:45pm Hey freediver, Do you think that it is appropriate that someone wears a Ronald McDonald outfit in a bank or airport and which completely obscures their face just because their religious belief in their imaginary God stipulates that they do so ??
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #128 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 2:35am delete
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Grey

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #129 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 2:38am

And the walls came tumbling down.

http://pixhost.info/pictures/1776956

The sexy brunette remained defiant, saying that she bared it all as a reaction to the "slavery" of her youth.

"What I want to say with these photos is, 'Girls, we don't have to live according to the rules imposed upon us,'" Sahin told Playboy.

"For years I subordinated myself to various societal constraints. The Playboy photo shoot was a total act of liberation."

The Berlin-based star's parents are said to be horrified at the pictorial, and Sahin told Germany's Bild newspaper that her mother has cut off contact.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/04/28/2011-04-28_germanmuslim_soap_st...

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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #130 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 7:06pm

Quote:

Hey freediver,

Do you think that it is appropriate that someone wears a Ronald McDonald outfit in a bank or airport and which completely obscures their face just because their religious belief in their imaginary God stipulates that they do so ??

Bank - no. This is a privately owned place where the need for security is justifiable. That is, the bank has a right to demand people remove face coverings. If the bank is OK with it, then fine by me. No doubt some banks would cater to Muslims by allowing it.

For the airports - yes, but the official security people should be able to make them remove it for identification purposes.

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Soren

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #131 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 8:29pm

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:21pm:

Quote:

except if agreed to by the owner of the premises

A lot of the premises you mentioned are not private.

Quote:

Atempts to legislate for civility are counterproductive.

Weren't you recently arguing in favour of legislating civility?

Public offices, transport etc - no face covering. This is a secular country, no special consideration for religious identity defacement. Private premises - owner's dicretion.

Re civility - I argued against the toleration of burqa/niqab and pointed out that it is a sign of deliberate incivility to wear one, especially in a country like France, where being a citoyenne means something quite different from our understanding, which is still essentially that of a subject of the crown.
In any case, my view is to legislate for the complete freedom to ridicule Islamic custom and religion and to punish anyone most severly if they resort to violence or intimidation in response. After all, Christians coped with piss christ without killing anyone or burning anything down. Muslims should be able to either cope with a couple of barbed cartoons and public ridicule of their backward doctrines and deportment or bugger off as people who will never belong here.

We have absolutely no multicultural sensitivities about Germans when we analyse and critique German National Socialism. I don't see why Muslims would deserve a different treatment. They doctrines stink just as much as nazism and they should have no doubt about it. They must not be allowed to hide behind the completely incidental fact that most of them happen to have tinted skins.

I would actually jail any Muslim who utters the word 'racism' in response to any criticism of Islam. That is inciting discord on completely spurious grounds. 12 months latrine duty, minimum.i

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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #132 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 8:39pm

Quote:

This is a secular country, no special consideration for religious identity defacement.

It is not 'special treatment' to be free.

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In any case, my view is to legislate for the complete freedom to ridicule

Because it is so difficult to legisltate civility?

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and to punish anyone most severly if they resort to violence or intimidation in response

When does your 'ridicule' become intimidation?

Quote:

I would actually jail any Muslim who utters the word 'racism' in response to any criticism of Islam.

So people should be free to criticism Islam any way they want, but if Muslims say something you consider politically incorrect in response, they should go to jail?

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mavisdavis Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1512	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #133 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 8:48pm Excuse me Freediver, Do you argee with the "right" to go masked in public, of that other most similar organisation, the KKK?
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48871 At my desk.	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #134 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 8:50pm Rights belong to individuals, not organisations. But yes, we have the right to wear KKK outfits in public. I even did so myself as a kid.
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