Australian Politics Forum - the right to choose what to wear

Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #45 - Apr 19^th, 2011 at 8:40pm What happened to the right for a thread to stay on topic?
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It_is_the_Darkness Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4000 in a ReTardis Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #46 - Apr 19^th, 2011 at 8:48pm How embarressing it would be for a society, for women to use a form of attire to express that they have been raped.
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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #47 - Apr 19^th, 2011 at 9:03pm

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 1:48pm:

Quote:

It is indeed my right to see the face of anyone, anywhere in a public place. I don't care what the religious or cultural imperatives, the common good overrules them all. In this case the right of every person to be able to recognise who they may be dealing with at any time.

You must be a laugh when you encounter a wilderness koala.

And it just keeps coming. Covering our face in public is so common we don't even notice it. Soren et all parade around claiming that our society demands people expose their face in public, yet are so accostomed to masks that they are blind to all the ones they see in their daily lives.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The case against Islamic immigration
Reply #48 - Apr 19^th, 2011 at 10:10pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 4:30pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 3:47pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 3:33pm:

Belgarion wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 2:49pm:

The right of a skier or motocyclist etc, to cover their face is only for a specific activity and is for recognised safety reasons. It's not a full time concealment of identity based on spurious doctrine.

True...but it's STILL legal...except within certain, limited circumstances....

I have no problems with the full face, or full body veils....PROVIDING they're removed in the same circumstances as motorcycle helmets and balaclavas.....

Give the number of banks that are atm only, and public transport system in major cities...
A 'blanket' ban is unnecessary...I can see the point behind some situations where the full veil is a problem..but I can ALSO see and accept the rights of the women to wear them if they choose (outside of the aforementioned circumstances)....

Ok, perhaps the police should do it like they do with shoplifters..call a female officer to check the face against the photo....it's still doable...

Your dreaming.

The whole reason that moslem women wear the burke, is so that they can conceal their faces, can conceal their apparent identity [claimed on grounds of female 'modesty'], in public.

So as to prevent 'others' [i.e. complete 'strangers' ] from ascertaining their apparent identity / 'form'.

Yadda,

are you 100% sure that it's NOT female modesty(in every case) that motivates the Burka????

I mean, there are women/girls in Australia who'd wear 'gladwrap' bikinis...if they thought it'd score them a rich hubby( yes I KNOW..demeaning and sexists)...why is it so surprising that some women are 'modest' and 'DON'T' want to show their "goodies'?????

gizmo,

Sorry, BUT FEMALE MODESTY IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE [re burkes].
SCENARIO;

The issue here, is that if my religion tells me, that i should be free to walk down Mainstreet, naked,
....SHOULD I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THAT ???

Should i [...or anyone else] have the right to go naked in public, on the basis that i am merely expressing my 'religious freedom/rights' to do so [i.e. to go naked in public] ???

It is the very same logic that is being used, by those defending the right of moslem women to conceal their apparent identity, in a culture such as ours.

I refer you to my argument against such a right, here....
"The case against Islamic immigration"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1302598375/28#28

Yes Yadda, female modesty IS the ONLY issue here...

As for the public nudity thing....be honest, there's less than 10% of people that you'd 'want' to see naked.... for every Elle McPherson..there's 40 Magda Szubanski's...

MOST people look a whole lot better dressed (even in floor length robes) than they do in bikinis or tights...or naked...That's aesthetics..nothing to do with choice, or religion or culture...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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gizmo_2655

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #49 - Apr 19^th, 2011 at 10:29pm

The Burqa predates Islam by around 500 years..it's cultural , not religious...and limited to only certain countries....

"There is evidence that this type of dress was worn by some Arab and Persian women long before Islam. For example, the Roman African Christian Tertullian, writing in Chapter 17 of The Veiling of Virgins around 200 AD, praises the modesty of those "pagan women of Arabia" who "not only cover their head, but their whole face...preferring to enjoy half the light with one eye rather than prostituting their whole face" .Strabo, writing in the first century AD, also refers to covering the face as a practice of some Persian women (Geography 11.13. 9–10)."

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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mozzaok

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #50 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 12:38am

Quote:

Thongs have nothing to do with choice either. They are just a piece of rubber. Yet I still choose to wear them. The veil is about modesty - you are forcing hse women to adopt your standard of modesty. You are forcing women to expose themselves against their will, all the while insisting it is for their own good.

FD

Well if you think that women so repressed as to believe that showing their faces in public is a standard that aussies should accept, you are wrong.

You say these women make this choice, but even if that is the case, for something as perverse as being made to feel like a slut for showing your face, is a pretty extreme psychology to develop, and any cultural attitudes and standards that would further such a sick way of thinking, should broach no acceptance in australian culture, it is not our way.

We do not wear masks in public, and despite the ludicrous comparisons with beards and sunglasses, that unassailable fact remains, it is not a part of our culture, and the culture that promotes the mask in question at the moment is a very sick one if it's aim is to make women feel like filthy whores for just showing their face in public, I mean, can it get much sicker than that?

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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It_is_the_Darkness

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #51 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 6:52am

Nobody likes the Secrets and Lies of Politics.
So why we should have the Hidings and Restraints of Fashion
is silly to say the least.

Mind you, the Burqua is a very practical attire in Deserts if ever there was one.
Just a shame that 'city' orientated Ango-Saxons (Westies) can't cope with the inferiority of their Bogun, Yobbo fashions.

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Grey

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #52 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 8:05am

Quote:

Thongs have nothing to do with choice either. They are just a piece of rubber. Yet I still choose to wear them. The veil is about modesty - you are forcing hse women to adopt your standard of modesty. You are forcing women to expose themselves against their will, all the while insisting it is for their own good.

Not one of the women, in all the worlds history, have ever chosen to be that modest.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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mavisdavis Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1512	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #53 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 9:14am I demand the right to wear a machine gun on each hip. Just look out on day 28!
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Yadda

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #54 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 9:29am

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 8:35pm:

Quote:

If there was, you could have your passport photo taken with the burqa on.

Taking a photo for identification is not the same situation as being in public. No-one is compelled to have a photo taken for ID purposes unless they get arrested or enter into an arrangement that requires it.

JUST 'SPREAD EM' A LITTLE WIDER PLEASE - the request, from our moslem brothers

Our craven, and morally sick, community is pandering to a foreign and intolerant philosophy.
Why?
Because moslems have convinced many of us, that if we will 'accommodate' moslem 'cultural' requirements, then all will be well between the moslem community, and non-moslems.
That is a moslem lie, a falsehood.

What moslems, at first request, but as our acquiescence to moslem 'needs' is 'satisfied', what moslems will then insist upon, is that the non-moslem host community must become de facto Sharia community - so as to assure 'social harmony' between moslems, and non-moslems.

We [the people of 'Western' nations of this age] do not deserve the freedom and liberties, which OUR FOREFATHERS secured,.

Freedom and liberties which are both unappreciated, and unearned by this craven and wicked generation.

Moslem woman 'proudly' displays her Florida USA D/L photo ID to accommodate moslem 'sensibilities'

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/42-19448491.jpgsize=67&uid=81191590-9c20-436b-9155-ed043889ea6c&uniqID=82ee02f7-2671-41c8-b025-bfabe86157de
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/42-19448491.jpg?size=67&uid=81191590-9c20-436b-9155-ed043889ea6c&uniqID=82ee02f7-2671-41c8-b025-bfabe86157de

New Jersey USA D/L photo ID to accommodate moslem 'sensibilities'

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/7559/1819/220/z/61084/gse_multipart31357.jpg

AND,

http://isaacschrodinger.typepad.com/isaacschrodinger/images/2007/03/24/muslim_woman_id.jpg

Burkas for Australian society ??? - SURE, WHY NOT, THEY'RE JUST BEING 'MODEST'. /sarc off

http://delhi4cats.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/covered-women.jpgw=468&h=283

Google images;
muslim women face covering driver photo id

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 8:35pm:

Quote:

So as to prevent 'others' [i.e. complete 'strangers' ] from ascertaining their apparent identity / 'form'.

What are you on about Yadda? Do you suspect them of being aliens or something?

Duh, FD.

Duh, duh, duh.

The whole point FD, is that no-one can tell, who is wearing a burka, or why someone wears a burka.

Are you denying that ISLAM is a violent and militant philosophy?

And on many occasions, moslem militants have used burkas, tactically.

Jihadi men have been known to wear burkas for tactical reasons, concealing their identity, and weapons under burkas.

Devout moslem women have been 'turned' into Jihadi bombers, concealing explosives under their burkas.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/woman-caught-with-bomb-under-burqa.html

Google;
bomb under burka

Google;
weapon under burka

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 8:35pm:

Quote:

Sorry, BUT FEMALE MODESTY IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE [re burkes].

Yadda, people may cover themselves for whatever reason they want, including modesty. You do not get to choose their motives for them.

FD,

Duh.

See my response, above.

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2011 at 8:35pm:

Quote:

Should i [...or anyone else] have the right to go naked in public

Yes you should, and in plenty of places you can. We have come a long way from our victorian background, when our women had to wear a full length woolen gown at the beach. Our culture is actually far closer to that of Islam than our current law. Our current standards are a rejection of our culture and history, not a reflection of it.

The whole point FD, imo, is that if my religion is able to convince me that i have a right to behave in a certain way, must everyone else respect that supposed right ???

Must everyone else [with my broader community] respect, my 'religious freedom/right' to do what others may find offensive ???

If so, why ???

You suggest, it is because i must respect their 'religious freedom/right'

Q.
Shouldn't respect and tolerance be a two way street ???

Not according to moslems, living in non-moslem host nations.

And not according to FD.

Because non-moslem host nations, MUST 'accommodate' all moslem 'cultural' requirements.

Duh.

No we 'must' not.

We too, deserve respect and tolerance, especially from cultural 'guests'.

IMAGE
http://www.theluxechronicles.com/.a/6a00e54f05e1bb88340120a6ab2571970c-700wi
THIS BEHAVIOUR, CHOOSING TO DRESS LIKE THIS, IN PUBLIC, IS APPROPRIATE IN SAUDI ARABIA

But such behaviour, choosing to wear such attire, in public, in Australia, is offensive to Australian cultural mores.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Equitist Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9632 NSW	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #55 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 9:41am Many things are offensive to Australian social mores - including Aussie footbrawlers and pollies!
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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #56 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 9:02pm

Quote:

Well if you think that women so repressed as to believe that showing their faces in public is a standard that aussies should accept, you are wrong.

That is not even a sentence Mozz.

Quote:

We do not wear masks in public

Yes we do.

Quote:

and despite the ludicrous comparisons with beards and sunglasses

Who made that comparison? I have given plenty of examples of actual masks worn in public.

Quote:

that unassailable fact remains, it is not a part of our culture

But it is Mozz.

Quote:

Not one of the women, in all the worlds history, have ever chosen to be that modest.

Yes they have Grey. That you claim to speak for every woman that has ever existed illustrates the arrogance that is so rife among those calling for a ban.

Quote:

Our craven, and morally sick, community is pandering to a foreign and intolerant philosophy.

Yadda, individual liberty is our own philosophy.

Quote:

The whole point FD, is that no-one can tell, who is wearing a burka

Yes you can Yadda. They are the ones wearing the burka.

Quote:

or why someone wears a burka

Have you tried asking them? It's no big mystery.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #57 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 9:18pm

freediver wrote on Apr 20^th, 2011 at 9:02pm:

Yadda, individual liberty is our own philosophy.

It is also our philosophy to judge actions by the motivation behind them. Upholding individual liberty is decidedly not the motivation that brings Muslims in burqas to our public spaces - re-primitivising the West is.

Upholding women's individual liberty in the public sphere is anathema to Islam, let alone strands of it that prescribe the burqa.

Your whole individual liberty argument is false when applied to muslim women. It holds water only for women who do have individual liberty, like these two:

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« Last Edit: Apr 20^th, 2011 at 10:05pm by Soren »

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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #58 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 9:26pm

Quote:

It is also our philosophy to judge actions by the motivation behind them.

Judge away. Like I said no-one cares what you think or what dastardly motive you ascribe to these women.

Quote:

Upholding individual liberty is decidedly not the motivation that brings Muslims in burqas to our public spaces.

Likewise when I put on a pair of thongs and walk down the street I am not motivated by individual liberty. I am just getting the paper.

Quote:

Upholding women's individual liberty in the public sphere is anathem to Islam, let alone strands of it that prescribe the burqa.

So this is something in common you have with Islam?

Quote:

Your whole individual libert argument is false when applied to muslim women.

Again Soren, you simply have no clue what liberty means.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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darkhall67

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #59 - Apr 20^th, 2011 at 9:33pm

We have rules in civilised countries.

They are called "decency laws".

It is deemed "indecent" for someone to walk down the street stark bollocks naked.

it's deemed "indecent" for someone to walk down the street in a kkk ensemble.

Like wise , it is INDECENT for a woman to be wearing a burkha or niqab.

No ifs . No buts .

No "but i really WANT to wear this thing".

In a civilized secular society those items of clothing are "indecent".

Get over it.

Your religion isnt deemed "indecent" ( well , any religion is indecent in my opinion but that's by the by ) but those particular items of clothing ARTE indecent.

You have many choices of clothing to wear if yopu "choose# to ne a moslem ;

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJzn4k-ynPrRYLuJCWIuzij9wFF-6Zza-hqvHvM...
http://t3.gstatic.com/imagesq=tbn:ANd9GcRJzn4k-ynPrRYLuJCWIuzij9wFF-6Zza-hqvHvMq-uQ6B_V0cF

The burkha and niqab arent one of them.

Get over it.

Show your face.

Your grandchildren will thank you for it.

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