Australian Politics Forum - the right to choose what to wear

mavisdavis

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #75 - Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 2:13pm

Australia is a relatively free country, and as a concerned citizen, I demand the right to go in public, free from the intimidating prospect of being confronted with people creeping around with their faces hidden. Freedom can only be maintained by the use of common decency, and consideration for others. This face masking business is the height of arrogance, typical of the agressively anti social attitude of muslims.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48871 At my desk.	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #76 - Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 2:19pm No Mavis. You seem a bit confused about what freedom is. Freedom can only be maintained by defending people's right to choose, even if you disagree with their choice. Anything else is hypocrisy, if you try to pretend you are also defending freedom.
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Soren

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #77 - Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 10:21pm

freediver wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 11:51am:

Quote:

You wouldn't encourage your good lady wife/daughter to ignore the customs of the countries you are visiting.

No I wouldn't, but you are missing the point Soren.

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You wouldn't dare walk through the Gaza Strip with a discreet yarmulke on your pate.

And this is your justification for your position? Calling me a loser and citing a war zone as an example we should follow for the limits of personal freedom?

My point is - read it slowly if that helps - is that you (you personally, FD) do actually recognise without the need of any posts and explanation that the society and people around you DO matter when you chose how you conduct yourself in public.

It is an indication of your stupidity - and I think bad faith - that you need an extereme example like a yarmulke in Gaza to make you see that liberty to be honoured is not just doing what YOU want, regardless of others around you. Liberty is a relationship to others around you (an idea you scoff, yet cannot refute).

This is a point about 'others around you', FD. Don't get stuck on the war zone. It is about recognising that we always act with a conscious consideration of others around us - unless we are sociopaths, of course.

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Foolosophy

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #78 - Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 10:30pm

Soren wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 10:21pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2011 at 11:51am:

Quote:

You wouldn't encourage your good lady wife/daughter to ignore the customs of the countries you are visiting.

No I wouldn't, but you are missing the point Soren.

Quote:

You wouldn't dare walk through the Gaza Strip with a discreet yarmulke on your pate.

And this is your justification for your position? Calling me a loser and citing a war zone as an example we should follow for the limits of personal freedom?

unless we are sociopaths, of course.

of course

its good that you recognise your spiritual and mental illness Soren

With the right international team of brain surgeons and psycho-nuero-therapy you will be on your feet in no time

Keep your chin up

Yours Sincerely

Foolosophy

PS
Whilst you're recovering in post cranial-surgery ward, I highly recommend some stimulating reading

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #79 - Apr 24^th, 2011 at 8:35pm Why am I not surprised that you get your bearings by the Garry Bumbags of this world. Fitting, really, for an enormous arse like you. A Gary Bumbag must speak to your very depths.
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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #80 - Apr 24^th, 2011 at 8:54pm

Quote:

My point is - read it slowly if that helps - is that you (you personally, FD) do actually recognise without the need of any posts and explanation that the society and people around you DO matter when you chose how you conduct yourself in public.

Sure, I conduct myself with dignity and respect and leave people alone who do not bother me - including people wearing masks. I do not go demanding they uncover themselves for me. That would be stupid.

Quote:

It is an indication of your stupidity - and I think bad faith - that you need an extereme example like a yarmulke in Gaza to make you see that liberty to be honoured is not just doing what YOU want, regardless of others around you. Liberty is a relationship to others around you (an idea you scoff, yet cannot refute).

Soren, liberty is a 'live and let live' relationship, not an 'I demand you let me see your face' relationship. You want to force others to expose their face to you. Values like individual liberty demand that you refrain from doing so and mind your own business.

Quote:

This is a point about 'others around you', FD. Don't get stuck on the war zone. It is about recognising that we always act with a conscious consideration of others around us

You obviously do not, as you have yourself proposed that we should abandon all politeness and dignitiy when faced with a woman hiding her face from you. You do not consider others around you at all. Instead you arrogantly insist they change the way they act to make you feel more comfortable, then pretend everyone else in Australia shares your values, whatever they are. You talk about consideration for others, but in practice it is only consideration for you and people who want the same as you. It is like you just stepped off a boat from Copenhagen and think you can tell everyone here what it means to be an Aussie.

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Foolosophy

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #81 - Apr 24^th, 2011 at 8:57pm

Soren wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 8:35pm:

Why am I not surprised that you get your bearings by the Garry Bumbags of this world. Fitting, really, for an enormous arse like you. A Gary Bumbag must speak to your very depths.

Gary must be Anti-American too!

Allow me to quote a a few things in the preface from Gary's sublime poltical work:

"The corpocracy is the marriage made in Hell between "our" government and large corporations. There is no real democracy in America today, no self rule, no government for, by, and of the people. Americans are ruled instead by an undemocratic regime, the huge and powerful corpocracy. Its rule is tyrannical and harmful. No sphere of American life is spared, whether it is the personal/social/cultural sphere, the economic sphere, the political sphere; or the environmental sphere. If FDR were to return and witness what is happening to us he might say we are living in a Fascist state."

....Thomas Jefferson said he hoped "America would crush moneyed corporations" that were challenging our democracy. Were he to return he would say "I warned you".

Soren must also think FDR and Thomas Jefferson were anti-American.

Soren traps himself in his own immoral lies and convoluted self deceptions.

It's so easy to do ladies and gentlemen

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Soren

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #82 - Apr 24^th, 2011 at 9:41pm

freediver wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 8:54pm:

Quote:

My point is - read it slowly if that helps - is that you (you personally, FD) do actually recognise without the need of any posts and explanation that the society and people around you DO matter when you chose how you conduct yourself in public.

Sure, I conduct myself with dignity and respect and leave people alone who do not bother me - including people wearing masks. I do not go demanding they uncover themselves for me. That would be stupid.

Quote:

It is an indication of your stupidity - and I think bad faith - that you need an extereme example like a yarmulke in Gaza to make you see that liberty to be honoured is not just doing what YOU want, regardless of others around you. Liberty is a relationship to others around you (an idea you scoff, yet cannot refute).

Soren, liberty is a 'live and let live' relationship, not an 'I demand you let me see your face' relationship. You want to force others to expose their face to you. Values like individual liberty demand that you refrain from doing so and mind your own business.

Quote:

This is a point about 'others around you', FD. Don't get stuck on the war zone. It is about recognising that we always act with a conscious consideration of others around us

You obviously do not, as you have yourself proposed that we should abandon all politeness and dignitiy when faced with a woman hiding her face from you. You do not consider others around you at all. Instead you arrogantly insist they change the way they act to make you feel more comfortable, then pretend everyone else in Australia shares your values, whatever they are. You talk about consideration for others, but in practice it is only consideration for you and people who want the same as you. It is like you just stepped off a boat from Copenhagen and think you can tell everyone here what it means to be an Aussie.

Covering your face in public on the basis of an ideology whose stated aim is the destruction of the said free and open society is rude and insolent. Demaning respect for it is an insult. You go ahead and accommodate insolence and insult.

I don't have to.

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mavisdavis Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1512	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #83 - Apr 24^th, 2011 at 9:53pm The whole face hiding bit is not so much about the right to choose what to wear, it`s a security issue, and a quality of life issue. How low do you want to go?
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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #84 - Apr 24^th, 2011 at 9:55pm

Quote:

Covering your face in public on the basis of

Soren it does not matter why they do it. It does not actually harm you. The harm is all in your head. It is imaginary.

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Demaning respect for it is an insult. You go ahead and accommodate insolence and insult.

The insult is all in your head too Soren. I prefer to deal with reality. No-one is demanding anything from you, other than that you mind your own business. Is that too much to ask? You on the other hand are placing silly demands on these women that you can only justify with some warped notion of Australian values being imposed on people.

Quote:

The whole face hiding bit is not so much about the right to choose what to wear, it`s a security issue, and a quality of life issue.

I am happy to treat the security aspect the same way all other face coverings are treated. As for quality of life, it is up to the individual to choose what they like.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #85 - Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:23pm Well, I think they are insolent front bottoms. You must support my liberty to say so.
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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #86 - Apr 25^th, 2011 at 8:59am

Sure, but I can also point out your hypocrisy in claiming your position is based on some high ground of culture or politeness. I have never tried to prevent you saying these things Soren. I have encouraged you, because the more you say the more you paint yourself into your own little corner of fear and irrationality.

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Soren

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #87 - Apr 25^th, 2011 at 10:57am

ALas, my liberty counts for very little. If I say to any of these insolent bints what I think of them - that they are rude and insolent bints - they'd haul me before a court on spurious racial and religiou vilification charges.
They have the liberty to cause affront but others are prevented from voicing a proper apprisal of that affront.

As far as I am concerned, they can wear whatever they like if others in turn can say to them what they think about it, without fear of being assaulted or fatwahed.

If we can critically appraise and riducule Islam and all its stupid manifestations (and not just be restricted to the brazen lie that it is a religion of peace), we might be getting somewhere. But at present the criticim is allowed only one way. That is not freedom.

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freediver

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Re: the right to choose what to wear
Reply #88 - Apr 25^th, 2011 at 11:06am

Quote:

ALas, my liberty counts for very little. If I say to any of these insolent bints what I think of them - that they are rude and insolent bints - they'd haul me before a court on spurious racial and religiou vilification charges.

So they would be minding their own business doing nothing to you, and out of the blue you would start insulting them because of their clothes, and they would be the rude ones?

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They have the liberty to cause affront

Yes Soren. That's what liberty is. It means that you can't impose your will on them, no matter how loudly you complain or how upset you make yourself.

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As far as I am concerned, they can wear whatever they like if others in turn can say to them what they think about it, without fear of being assaulted or fatwahed.

Soren, we can criminalise assault all we want, but that is never going to make it hurt any less when you make an ass of yourself and get thumped. Have you so little pride in yourself as a man that you would harass women and then complain of your own fear of other men sticking up for them?

Quote:

If we can critically appraise and riducule Islam and all its stupid manifestations (and not just be restricted to the brazen lie that it is a religion of peace), we might be getting somewhere. But at present the criticim is allowed only one way. That is not freedom.

Tell us Soren, who uis preventing you from speaking your mind?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Foolosophy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1171 Australia Gender:	Re: the right to choose what to wear Reply #89 - Apr 25^th, 2011 at 11:09am Soren wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:23pm: Well, I think they are insolent front bottoms. You must support my liberty to say so. SOREN'S WORLD
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