The problem with Islam is not the clothes that Muslims wear, but that it systematically denies people the right to choose for themselves what to wear.

What makes western society better is not the bikini. Nor is it that we reserve face coverings for a limited number of situations like weddings, children's parties, fund raising, cocktail parties, motorbikes, superheroes, advertising chicken burgers, skiing, sports mascots, halloween, robbing banks, theme park employees, scuba diving, keeping bees, ultra-conservative women, plays, funerals, breaking down social barriers, women who should not have sent in a nude photo, or simply looking cool by hiding your gaze behind sunnies and a low brim. The notion that showing your face in public is some kind of requirement in our society is bogus and was only invented in response to the burqa debate.

What makes our society better is simply that we are free to choose for ourselves.

Attempts to ban the burqa completely miss both of these points. It mistakes the symptoms of Islam's problems for the cause. It mistakes how we express our freedom for that freedom. It blames and punishes the victim. It makes our society more like Islam, not less. Instead of making sure that vulnerable women in our society are not coerced into dressing the way other people want, some would coerce them into immitating our expression of freedom so that they don't make us feel uncomfortable.

The Australian government recently put out a successful advertising campaign against domestic violence and abusive relationships. One of the signs of abuse it highlighted was trying to control what women wear. This campaign was successful in confronting the public with some of the more insidious ways that abusive partners try to control their spouse. This would no doubt apply to a Muslim couple where the man pressures the woman to wear certain clothes or refrain from wearing clothes that expose her body. The advertising campaign represents the rational path for our society to handle situations where vulnerable women are forced to wear the burqa or anything else. It cuts to the heart of our volues as a society. However, it also applies to people who try to deny women the right to choose conservative clothes. Like it or not, some women do choose to cover their face for their own reasons. Forcing these women against their will to expose any part of their body is not the sign of a progressive society. It is more than a sign of abuse. It is a vulgar abuse of power.

Freedom only means something if it applies to things you don't like. If people are only free to choose clothes that meet your approval, they are not free at all. We cannot deny people the right to choose what to wear without denying it to ourselves. It is important that we protect the right of Muslim women to choose what to wear, but it is equally important that we prevent our own government from telling people what they can and cannot wear in public.

The burqa is not represenative of Islam, it's representative of islamofascism. People should enter our community who approve of its values and not because they want to undermine them. It's not 'tolerant' to allow representaives of fascism to wear their uniforms, it's stupid and weak. No woman in all human history has ever chosen to 'preserve their modesty' by wearing a burqa. Some choose it because they're idiotic enough to adopt it as a symbol of dissent. I support the 100 women coerced to wear the burqa by the extreme patriarchy of their society and don't much care about the oddballs who'd give away their freedoms by joining it.

Women should never be forced to wear the Burqa and nor should they ever be forced not to wear it. Like all things it should always be up to the individual 

Very well said FreeDiver.
Maybe the Burqa is slowly changing. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that the look/fashion of the Geisha of Nippon was focused upon.

I believe that such 'fashions' tend to be ultra-Conservative and I don't think there is anything wrong with that, especially if it is the female who chooses to do so. I know there are some insecure men who think they know what fashion best suits women, just as women try to change the way men dress too.
I think Nuns are both casual in their attire informally, and put the robe and Habit on when upon Formal occassions (like going to the Catholic Club here in Campbelltown ).

I tend to think 'Western' Fashions have really evolved from the Occidental quarter and the Music Industry that comes with it. No offence, but Musicians have gotta be the most pathetically attired people on the planet ...but they sound way  .

Also, I think the fashions at the Melbourne Cup are like watching skanks on champers dressed as the Queen Mother. Erk!

Quote:


Grey you can make it represent whatever you want. But if you want to ban it you need to come up with something real, not just your imagination.

Quote:


What are our values Grey? Personal freedom? Live and let live? Or conformity and meat pies? Would you have government imposed boganism?

Quote:


Yes they have Grey. You do not speak for these women. Again, making this crap up is not the same as a rational argument. You sound more and more like the stereotype from the ad claiming that the woman knew she deserved to be beaten.

Quote:


Actually you can. Religion is like that. The evidence is simply that so many Muslims do pick and choose. But freedom is not like that. You cannot claim to support freedom but pick and choose which ones to support.

Quote:


Tell me Grey, what is the problem there? Is it that the women cover their face, or that they are not free to choose?

Quote:


In societies that protect the right of individuals to choose for themselves what to wear.

Quote:


You are the one claiming to speak on behalf of all the world's women.

Soren wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:01pm:


And Soren's view is closer to Islam?

freediver wrote on Apr 24^th, 2011 at 10:04pm:



I am not here to represent Islam's views. I know this comes as a shock, but there it is, it's out now.