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The Problem of Evil (Read 42164 times)
Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #45 - May 8th, 2011 at 10:16am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:12am:
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:08am:
To be challenged is not the same thing as suffering and harm resulting from evil.

Most challenges are acceptable and respectable challenges with not a hint of evil entailed.

So your point doesn't actually address The Problem of Evil. But it does show that we can have free will and be challenged in that without the need of evil existing.

There is however, in the Abrahamic tradition, the Book of Job... Where god agrees to a wager with Satan who insists that if god inflicts suffering on the righteous Job, he will turn away from god.

And those inflicted sufferings are great and unquestionably evil in their intended sadism.


Poor Job... he suffered so greatly because of a bet between god and satin. God won the bet... but then, he knew he would. God is all knowing.

What satin and god did to Job is a classic example of Evil afflicting the innocent.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #46 - May 8th, 2011 at 10:28am
 
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:16am:
Poor Job... he suffered so greatly because of a bet between god and satin. God won the bet... but then, he knew he would. God is all knowing.

What satin and god did to Job is a classic example of Evil afflicting the innocent.

And it's clear that god absolves himself from evil intent when he answers Job by reminding Job that he, god, is all-knowing and all-powerful. In other words, in the Abrahamic traditions, the believer must accept that god may commit sadistic acts without being evil.
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Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #47 - May 8th, 2011 at 10:35am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:28am:
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:16am:
Poor Job... he suffered so greatly because of a bet between god and satin. God won the bet... but then, he knew he would. God is all knowing.

What satin and god did to Job is a classic example of Evil afflicting the innocent.

And it's clear that god absolves himself from evil intent when he answers Job by reminding Job that he, god, is all-knowing and all-powerful. In other words, in the Abrahamic traditions, the believer must accept that god may commit sadistic acts without being evil.


So god is not morally perfect?
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #48 - May 8th, 2011 at 10:43am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 9:36am:
Sappho, would you really want to live in a world where evil was impossible?


This could be heaven and this could be hell  Grin
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #49 - May 8th, 2011 at 10:49am
 
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:35am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:28am:
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:16am:
Poor Job... he suffered so greatly because of a bet between god and satin. God won the bet... but then, he knew he would. God is all knowing.

What satin and god did to Job is a classic example of Evil afflicting the innocent.

And it's clear that god absolves himself from evil intent when he answers Job by reminding Job that he, god, is all-knowing and all-powerful. In other words, in the Abrahamic traditions, the believer must accept that god may commit sadistic acts without being evil.


So god is not morally perfect?

Not the Abrahamic god in my book (but then neither are the gods of the Hindu and Greek pantheons). However, for the Jew, Christian and Muslim, the question cannot be asked, because god cannot commit acts of evil... The sufferings that befall the individual or group, to the believer, are always earned/deserved. This is true also of Buddhism, where the existence of a god is generally not posited. Sufferings there are the result of one's karma, regardless of whether the sufferer can consciously remember the act that earned the suffering.

With believers, when it comes to explaining away their suffering, it always involves a neurotic obsession with not being abandoned by a deity or a pseudo-deific principle. Suffering, to the believer caught in this neurotic maelstrom, is shameful... The believer is like a child chastised by a parent, who must now face his peers and siblings, humiliated,  and be driven by his determination to prove to himself and the world that he is still loved by those great givers of life, sustenance and comfort, his parents.

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #50 - May 8th, 2011 at 12:30pm
 
One mans star of bethlehem is another mans sun gone super nova.
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #51 - May 8th, 2011 at 6:18pm
 
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 9:56am:
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 9:36am:
Sappho wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 6:43am:
If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.  

source

Smiley


Sappho, would you really want to live in a world where evil was impossible?


lol... That's a funny question to ask an atheist. You should a theist. Theists have an idea of a world without evil and they look forward to it... some call it paradise on Earth... some say it will come when the redeemer comes... others call it heaven... and other still call it Nirvana. (not an exhaustive list)

What kind of god would deny his creation their deep desire for a world without evil... if not an evil god?


I think if evil was impossible you would have a lot of trouble identifying anything good, beyond the mundane. There would be something less human about us.

Many religions teach that God does not deny his creation a perfect world, they just have to knowingly choose it. If you didn't consciously make this choice, how would you even know you were in heaven rather than just an incredibly boring place?
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #52 - May 8th, 2011 at 7:40pm
 
Even if we presuppose for a second God and evil existed, evils continuance is needed to justify God's 'good'. Good and evil, like good and bad in the real world, work in a dialectical relation. You can't have one without the other because each need the other to compare and contrast itself against. For example, something is 'good' because it has such and such effect and avoids these other 'evil' such and such effects. Something is 'evil' because it has such and such effects and avoids 'good' such and such effects. It's a simple game of comparing effects and placing more value the good and little value on the evil.

So, God needs evil people just as much as he needs good people. They both are required to justify his morality.

Time 1
God 0
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Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #53 - May 8th, 2011 at 9:08pm
 
Freediver and Time are so close to the solution to this logical conundrum that I'll just tell you all.

Theologians would argue that we cannot know what good is, how good god is or how valuable good is without placing it in contrast with evil.

I find it a completely unacceptable solution... but it is a solution to the problem of evil nonetheless.

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #54 - May 8th, 2011 at 9:46pm
 
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 9:08pm:
Freediver and Time are so close to the solution to this logical conundrum that I'll just tell you all.

Theologians would argue that we cannot know what good is, how good god is or how valuable good is without placing it in contrast with evil.

I find it a completely unacceptable solution... but it is a solution to the problem of evil nonetheless.


Course it's unacceptable!  In a world where we cannot discern change obviates the notion of the existence of heaven and hell... And by that - the annihilation of good and evil... A state unacceptable to theists.

But it doesn't obviate the feeling on earth (to those that feel it) that evil has been done.

So... No solution.
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Yadda
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #55 - May 9th, 2011 at 8:54am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:49am:
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:35am:
So god is not morally perfect?



Not the Abrahamic god in my book (but then neither are the gods of the Hindu and Greek pantheons). However, for the Jew, Christian and Muslim, the question cannot be asked,...



Sure it is asked, philosophically, by any thinking 'believer'.

Many of us could claim to have had instances of enlightenment [e.g. in meditation], but we [mankind] do not have the means, the wherewithal, the capacity, to understand what we may understand as the 'divine'.

We are essentially distracted by our interactions with the things, in this world.

I don't believe that it is possible to exist within this fleshly body, and from moment to moment, to comprehend more than brief glimpses of reality [beyond our own 'reality'].





NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:49am:
.....because god cannot commit acts of evil... The sufferings that befall the individual or group, to the believer, are always earned/deserved. This is true also of Buddhism, where the existence of a god is generally not posited. Sufferings there are the result of one's karma, regardless of whether the sufferer can consciously remember the act that earned the suffering.



I believe that.

Though, the Bible says that God does create evil.  Isaiah 45:5-7

[But the Bible also says that God does not test us beyond what we can reasonably bear.]

In my own limited perception of what God is, i would say that it is impossible for God to harbour evil within him.

[But i believe that in this creation,...] God has created a 'palate of colours'.

And then, we as individuals all choose which colours to include in our own 'compositions'.



Our suffering here, seems intense to us.

But our suffering here is momentary.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.







NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:49am:

With believers, when it comes to explaining away their suffering, it always involves a neurotic obsession with not being abandoned by a deity or a pseudo-deific principle.
Suffering, to the believer caught in this neurotic maelstrom, is shameful... The believer is like a child chastised by a parent, who must now face his peers and siblings, humiliated,  and be driven by his determination to prove to himself and the world that he is still loved by those great givers of life, sustenance and comfort, his parents.




"...when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:"
Galatians 4:1-7

helian,

You may claim that people who have 'spiritual experiences' are probably neurotic.

But isn't it just a tad arrogant of atheists to imagine that they [exclusively?] have a 'handle' on reality, based on mankind's present ['scientific'] knowledge and comprehension, based on the input their own senses ???

i.e.
Isn't grasping so tightly onto such a 'perception' arrogant, given that the actual 'reality' is, that we actually know so little about ourselves, and so little about the 'environment' that we find ourselves in ???




helian,

Are you a normal, rational person ???

Are you sure ???

Look at us, men [and women] driven by our desires, and our passions, and our hormones.

In my estimation, we [mankind] have proved ourselves to be highly irrational ['stressed'] creatures.



What is 'normal' ???

You are ???

Personally, i would say that we are all 'common'.

i.e.
We [mankind] all share these same circumstances.

But are you arguing, that there are many normal and rational people among us [among mankind] ???     Grin   Grin   Grin

And people like yourself of course, would be a good 'representation' of what is, a 'normal' human being ???       Grin




Q.
What do we [mankind] really know, about our 'circumstances' ???

A.
The truth is, almost nothing.





Yadda the 'neuron'.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #56 - May 9th, 2011 at 9:31am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 9:46pm:
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 9:08pm:
Freediver and Time are so close to the solution to this logical conundrum that I'll just tell you all.

Theologians would argue that we cannot know what good is, how good god is or how valuable good is without placing it in contrast with evil.

I find it a completely unacceptable solution... but it is a solution to the problem of evil nonetheless.


Course it's unacceptable!  In a world where we cannot discern change obviates the notion of the existence of heaven and hell... And by that - the annihilation of good and evil... A state unacceptable to theists.

But it doesn't obviate the feeling on earth (to those that feel it) that evil has been done.

So... No solution.


That would work if heaven and hell were a part of the logical paradox, but they are not.

Here is another way to look at the Problem of Evil as expressed by David Hume....

Quote:
"Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"
"[God's] power we allow [is] infinite: Whatever he wills is executed: But neither man nor any other animal are happy: Therefore he does not will their happiness. His wisdom is infinite: He is never mistaken in choosing the means to any end: But the course of nature tends not to human or animal felicity: Therefore it is not established for that purpose. Through the whole compass of human knowledge, there are no inferences more certain and infallible than these. In what respect, then, do his benevolence and mercy resemble the benevolence and mercy of men?"


Hume shows why I believe the theological solution is profoundly inadequate... even if it does have logical merit in providing a solution to the logical paradox.
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Yadda
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #57 - May 9th, 2011 at 9:32am
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 7:40pm:
Even if we presuppose for a second God and evil existed, evils continuance is needed to justify God's 'good'. Good and evil, like good and bad in the real world, work in a dialectical relation. You can't have one without the other because each need the other to compare and contrast itself against. For example, something is 'good' because it has such and such effect and avoids these other 'evil' such and such effects. Something is 'evil' because it has such and such effects and avoids 'good' such and such effects. It's a simple game of comparing effects and placing more value the good and little value on the evil.

So, God needs evil people just as much as he needs good people. They both are required to justify his morality.

Time 1
God 0




Yes you can.

And [or, but ??? ], not in close proximity to each other.



I believe that in our world [within this 'reality'], both good and evil can find 'expression'.

This 'reality' is a 'construct' [err, ...a 'creation' even], where that 'expression', of both good and evil, is possible.
[...i believe].





But good and evil cannot co-exist within close proximity [i believe].

It is like, light and, darkness.

If something of the darkness were to approach light, it would be 'burned' up by the light.

If something of the light approached the darkness, it would be absorbed, 'corrupted', by the darkness.



'The light' is in the centre, the darkness surrounds the light, but is unable to overcome it.

At the centre of the light, is a 'presence', which we know as 'God'.




I want to live in the light.

I know what is in the darkness.

I do not want to live there!



That is my choice.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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muso
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #58 - May 9th, 2011 at 1:58pm
 
Yadda wrote on May 9th, 2011 at 9:32am:
I want to live in the light.

I know what is in the darkness.

I do not want to live there!



That is my choice.


...
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Yadda
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #59 - May 9th, 2011 at 4:04pm
 
muso wrote on May 9th, 2011 at 1:58pm:
Yadda wrote on May 9th, 2011 at 9:32am:
I want to live in the light.

I know what is in the darkness.

I do not want to live there!



That is my choice.



http://www.thisisjuststupid.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/sc4-darth-v...




...



LOL


May the force be with you muso.     Grin




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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