freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2011 at 6:11pm:

So you never ban or moderate, then FD?

If 'evil' must exist "because otherwise we wouldn't know what 'good' is" (and, for the theist, 'we wouldn't know god exists'), should indicate to the theist only that 'god' cannot be omni-benevolent.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 10^th, 2011 at 8:31am:



helian,

That is an interesting Q. to put to FD.

I would assume that FD would need to remove posts that had content which was 'unlawful'.

But excluding those posts that had 'unlawful' content, is FD saying that all other comment is 'acceptable' ?



Personally, i find myself leaning FD's way.
...for the sake of allowing free and open debate, on any issue.

Personally, i am in favour of any and all biases being expressed in online forums [like OzPol].

And i would suggest that it is healthy to any 'open' society, for 'offensive' biases [and as many as possible!!] to be expressed,
...AND EXPOSED TO THE SCRUTINY OF OTHERS.

In that way, with evidence and argument presented, others [who view, or, make the arguments] can judge for themselves, whether any expressed bias is,
reason-able,
OR,
irrational and/or 'offensive'.




And isn't this then, coming back again, to our perception of what is good [acceptable], and evil [offensive] ?

And in such a process, don't we ourselves, then become the judges of what is 'acceptable' [at least for ourselves].



+++

p.s.

What about comments, posters, who attack 'the messenger' [abusive posts] ?

Are such 'comments' legitimate ?

e.g.
Posts which do not engage in debate, posts which do not argue the merits of the information being presented, but rather only denigrate a person [who is presenting information, or presenting an argument].

Quote:


Interesting point that... but rather than refer to aliens, lets ask instead... How do you know that your god is not in fact, a demonic god who merely claims to be good?

After all, it's not as though god denies the existence of other gods, he doesn't. Rather he acknowledges other gods and demands that he be the object of worship and not them.

Quote:


So how can a person know if it is not one of the other gods which is the good god, and that The God who claims to be good, isn't deceiving the faithful?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 8^th, 2011 at 7:30am:



helian,

Yes, in OT scripture Yahweh acknowledges that there 'are' [i.e. that men have worshipped] other 'Gods'.

But, he also states in OT scripture that men have sought imbue [what are merely] idols with the characteristics of (a) God.


e.g.
There are numerous Bible passages which seem to say, that seem to to acknowledge, that there 'are' many Gods...

Psalms 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Psalms 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

Psalms 135:5
For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.

And there are many more such verses.



But also there are verses like this....

Isaiah 40:18
To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
19  The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
20  He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.

Isaiah 44:9
They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.



But in OT scripture God claims that he alone is a, the, God of creation, and he states that there are no Gods beside him.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Psalms 96:5
For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7  And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8  Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


???

Now there is a contentious statement / admission !    

Yadda wrote on Jul 8^th, 2011 at 10:13am:


So how does this sit with the book of Job?

For those who don't know, God was challenged by Satan who claimed that Job would not be so faithful if his life were not so blessed by God. So God allowed Satan to do what he could to strip Job of his blessings to see if his obedience to and faith in god remained. Job's faith and obedience remained and so God doubly blessed him in return.

Now, if God was so against wickedness and oppression, why on earth did he allow this wicked challenge which resulted in oppression of the kind not seen anywhere else in the bible? 

Quote:


Yep been there and done that and found God to be a collection of inconsistencies. More significantly, I cant justify his morality, which in many cases is beyond the call of justice to the point of unnecessarily cruel. (such as Lot's wife or Job).

You do realise that Job is teaching us a lesson too... that if there is doubt, you may test it. And that is what we are doing here... we are looking at scripture and comparing that to the common understanding of God as all knowing, all powerful and all good.

Yadda wrote on Jul 8^th, 2011 at 12:25pm:


It was more than the body (and the purse strings for that matter) that were affected Yadda, it was Job's relationships had with his sons that he lost too. They died remember? And he gave back to Job double the sons, but they were not the same sons with which he had meaningful relationships. And then again, Lot lost his wife.

Sappho wrote on Jul 8^th, 2011 at 12:34pm:




Job 1:20
Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
21  And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
22  In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.


Psalms 103:14
For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
15  As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16  For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.
17  But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
18  To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.


Psalms 144:3
LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him!
4  Man is like to vanity: his days are as a shadow that passeth away.


Sappho,

Do you really believe that Job has lost his sons ???   [<----yes, present tense ]

Do you believe that Job and his sons, do not exist, now ???


Matthew 22:31
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


Yes, Job bore a great deal of loss and pain, in his life.

Is God unjust ???

Psalms 62:8
Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.
9  Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.
10  Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.
11  God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.
12  Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.


Yes, it is difficult for us to comprehend what is the purpose, of our suffering here.

Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.


Ecclesiastes 11:8
But if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that cometh is vanity.
9  Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.


Of the days of men's lives, here in this life, the Preacher says...

Ecclesiastes 3:10
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
12  I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.


This world, this life, is a distraction to us.

And if that is true, it begs the question;

Why doesn't God want us to be aware, of who we really are ???





Do you think that the 60-70 years, which you 'invest' in this life can produce 'anything' of worth ???

The consequences of our choices is all that will remain.

Are, were, your choices, good choices ?



Sure, while we are here we love our families, and we do the best that we can for them.

e.g.
Alexander the Great had a cousin [perhaps], that person fathered 6 children [perhaps].
That man, loved his children and his wife.
That man invested all that he had, in his relationship with his children and his wife.
Where is that man today ?

He is dust [at least, everything 'of' him, which was tangible, is now dust].

Should that man have worried about what he would leave here, within this world ???



And what is the point, my point, in presenting that little scenario ?

My point is that we should not love this world.

Matthew 6:19
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


+++

Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Is that explanation too simple ???

If you have children, don't you challenge them [as they are growing up], to help them grow?

And doesn't how we [ourselves] respond to hardships and challenges, define who we are ?

Love God.