Australian Politics Forum - The Problem of Evil

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #75 - Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:11pm

This is not off topic:

Quote:

You really are very naughty, Sappho. Why are you so insecure of your position that you delete posts (thrice) which highlight your hypocrisy? Am I not evil? Did God not direct these posts of mine....which you have been busy deleting? Were you also a robot, from birth, programmed to meet me here this night to delete my posts?

Your 'on topic' reply would be greatly appreciated, Sappho.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #76 - Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:40pm

Sappho wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 6:43am:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.

source

The above OP embodies an argument which is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent).

In classical logic, modus tollens (or modus tollendo tollens) (Latin for "the way that denies by denying") has the following argument form:

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.

The inherent problem within this argument is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that the Bible also states that God creates evil.

Don't believe me?? That's fine .. but read this:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

Isaiah 45:7

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #77 - Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:44pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:11pm:

This is not off topic:

Quote:

You really are very naughty, Sappho. Why are you so insecure of your position that you delete posts (thrice) which highlight your hypocrisy? Am I not evil? Did God not direct these posts of mine....which you have been busy deleting? Were you also a robot, from birth, programmed to meet me here this night to delete my posts?

Your 'on topic' reply would be greatly appreciated, Sappho.

Recapping the current discussion between Yadda and Myself.

Quote:

So how can a person know if it is not one of the other gods which is the good god, and that The God who claims to be good, isn't deceiving the faithful?

Now Yadda claims that God is 'revealed' as good within the scripture, so I asked him to show how this can be the case with Job, he then advised that material concerns are not spiritual concerns. I reminded him that Job suffered spiritual losses too in terms of the death of his 10 sons. Yadda then replied that the loss is not eternal loss but a material loss associated with his corporeal and temporary existence on earth. I am yet to respond as I am still considering that point.

Now, you will have to join the dots for me Aussie. What does Fatalism, Determinism, Free Will, my alleged hypocrisy, my alleged insecurity, your deleted posts and your alleged evil nature have to do with the idea that God maybe deceiving His faithful into believing Him to be good?

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #78 - Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:50pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

Sappho wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 6:43am:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.

source

The above OP embodies an argument which is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent).

In classical logic, modus tollens (or modus tollendo tollens) (Latin for "the way that denies by denying") has the following argument form:

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.

The inherent problem within this argument is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that the Bible also states that God creates evil.

Don't believe me?? That's fine .. but read this:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

Isaiah 45:7

Nice one. Thank you Lisa. But it also means that god is not omnibenevolence as is claimed of him by the faithful. What do you think?

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"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #79 - Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:54pm

Sappho wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

Sappho wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 6:43am:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.

source

The above OP embodies an argument which is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent).

In classical logic, modus tollens (or modus tollendo tollens) (Latin for "the way that denies by denying") has the following argument form:

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.

The inherent problem within this argument is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that the Bible also states that God creates evil.

Don't believe me?? That's fine .. but read this:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

Isaiah 45:7

Nice one. Thank you Lisa. But it also means that god is not omnibenevolence as is claimed of him by the faithful. What do you think?

Well before I answer .. I'd like to know what you think. Or is the above reply .. basically it?

Oh and I'm quite surprised to note that Sprint (our highly esteemed Moderator on all things Spiritual) hasn't bothered to enter this topic to answer these questions already.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Sappho

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #80 - Jul 10^th, 2011 at 11:01pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:54pm:

Sappho wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

Sappho wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 6:43am:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.

source

The above OP embodies an argument which is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent).

In classical logic, modus tollens (or modus tollendo tollens) (Latin for "the way that denies by denying") has the following argument form:

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.

The inherent problem within this argument is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that the Bible also states that God creates evil.

Don't believe me?? That's fine .. but read this:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

Isaiah 45:7

Nice one. Thank you Lisa. But it also means that god is not omnibenevolence as is claimed of him by the faithful. What do you think?

Well before I answer .. I'd like to know what you think. Or is the above reply .. basically it.

I'm satisfied that God cannot be all good as is claimed of him by the faithful.

Then there is this; How can a person know if it is not one of the other gods which is the good god, and that The God who claims to be good, isn't deceiving the faithful?

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"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

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Emma

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #81 - Jul 10^th, 2011 at 11:56pm

Having read - just now- in the process of writing and then losing a post to this topic -
the King James - Holy Bible Illustrated -
- printed -- Cambridge University Press - Fetter Lane, London, F,,C.4 - very old -

I'd like to refer you to Exodus Chapters 19 and 20. Fascinating descriptions - - much more so to people today - than perhaps to the people who first read this particular Bible.
It actually has a series of Maps of the Holy Land - and the latest is

'MODERN PALESTINE' - showing the PHYSICAL FEATURES, edited by ... etetc etc

So read it.

19 - Mt Sinai - God appears to Moses and hands down the Law.
And warnings and instructions to Moses about caring for the people of Israel whilst He is near.!

And - check out chapter 20. Particularly 20.18 - 20.25.

Evil??? Seems all your churches statues and icons are FORBIDDEN by the Lord. As YOUR person pollutes the temples you create. IE you, we - are EVIL.

IF YOU REALLY MUST speak in these theistic terms, if you really MUST go to Church - YOU are Evil.

Comments??

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Yadda

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #82 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 12:32am

Sappho wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:54pm:

Sappho wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

The above OP embodies an argument which is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent).

In classical logic, modus tollens (or modus tollendo tollens) (Latin for "the way that denies by denying") has the following argument form:

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.

The inherent problem within this argument is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that the Bible also states that God creates evil.

Don't believe me?? That's fine .. but read this:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

Isaiah 45:7

Nice one. Thank you Lisa.

But it also means that god is not omnibenevolence as is claimed of him by the faithful.

What do you think?

Well before I answer .. I'd like to know what you think. Or is the above reply .. basically it.

I'm satisfied that God cannot be all good as is claimed of him by the faithful.

Oooow, ooooooow, i want to have a go at this 'problem'. Grin

The problem of the presence of evil and good, and the question of, God, is he the author of both evil and good ?

I will have a go at this.

Its coming.

Sappho wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

Then there is this;

How can a person know 1/ if it is not one of the other gods which is the good god,

and 2/ that The God who claims to be good, isn't deceiving the faithful?

Obviously, i can not know, i could never know, if [the entity i know as...] God [in fact] was intentionally fooling me, intentionally deceiving me.

But i can't believe that would be, or is true.

He has given me no reason to believe such a circumstance is the fact.

Quite the opposite, he has given me reason to believe that he loves me.

I can't explain it further.

I can't prove it.

Except perhaps [explain it] like this....

You KNOW that 2 + 2 = 4

I KNOW that God loves me.

On a particular occasion, he has given me reason to believe that that is true.

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« Last Edit: Jul 11^th, 2011 at 1:03am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Emma

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #83 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 1:11am

What - no comment? No one??

Rather blather on about how you KNOW god loves you, you just do!!!!!can't prove it (of course).. BUT,....
can't believe otherwise. Dearie Me!! Madre Dios !! Saints Preserve Us!

So - you've never actually thought about the Commandments? - perhaps I should say.... read them???
No view on Moses' words to do with the proper worship of the Lord?
As TOLD TO HIM by the Lord thy GOD??

20.23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

20.24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

20.25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

I personally think WOW !! when I read THIS! Now I know why I have an aversion to Churches, or organised religion of any kind.!!

Finally-

20.26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Food for thouight!!!!!!

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Yadda

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #84 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 9:04am

Sappho wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 11:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:54pm:

Sappho wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 10^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

The above OP embodies an argument which is of the logically valid form modus tollens (denying the consequent).

In classical logic, modus tollens (or modus tollendo tollens) (Latin for "the way that denies by denying") has the following argument form:

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.

The inherent problem within this argument is that it doesn't take into consideration the fact that the Bible also states that God creates evil.

Don't believe me?? That's fine .. but read this:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

Isaiah 45:7

Nice one. Thank you Lisa.

But it also means that god is not omnibenevolence as is claimed of him by the faithful.

What do you think?

Well before I answer .. I'd like to know what you think. Or is the above reply .. basically it.

I'm satisfied that God cannot be all good as is claimed of him by the faithful.

I can't [at this time] satisfactorily bring into words what i want to say about this apparent contradiction [i.e. God and evil].

My experience [at this time] is that it is impossible for my carnal mind, to adequately express what i want to say.

But i will say this;

In my own limited perception of what God is, i know [from my own experience] that the essence of what God is, has a purity which must absolutely exclude the presence of evil.

And yet, in this [our] 'reality' here, it is clear that both good and evil are able, to exist together, and, to exist in close proximity to each other.

And, in this 'reality', both good and evil seem to be [easily] able to find 'expression', in us [being 'expressed' in our choices, and then, being 'expressed' in the all too apparent consequences of our choices].

Is that last point significant ???

I said some other stuff concerning this problem of the existence good and evil...

"Netanyahu's speech to Congress"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1306323641/13#13

"The Problem of Evil"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1304541795/31#31

"The Problem of Evil"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1304541795/55#55

+++

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Numbers 16:5
...the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy;...even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

Psalms 37:1
Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Proverbs 24:19
Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked;
20 For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #85 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 9:25am

Emma wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 1:11am:

So - you've never actually thought about the Commandments? - perhaps I should say.... read them???
No view on Moses' words to do with the proper worship of the Lord?
As TOLD TO HIM by the Lord thy GOD??

20.23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

20.24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

20.25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

I personally think WOW !! when I read THIS! Now I know why I have an aversion to Churches, or organised religion of any kind.!!

jalane,

What is your point ?

Is it, that men do not know how to worship God, properly ???

I have no difficulty in conceding, that that is true.

That truth, is a consistent message throughout the Bible.

We, mankind, just don't seem to 'get' God, and his righteousness.

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Which refers to....

Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

And elsewhere....

Jeremiah 9:1
Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
6 Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Equitist Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9632 NSW	Re: The Problem of Evil Reply #86 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 9:33am Yadda, why do you not see that your own doG cannot be best pleased with your own evil obsession with Islam/Muslims!? Surely, your doG would want you to put your faith towards an infinitely more positive vocation!?
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Yadda

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #87 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 10:29am

Equitist wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 9:33am:

Yadda, why do you not see that your own doG cannot be best pleased with your own evil obsession with Islam/Muslims!?

Surely, your doG would want you to put your faith towards an infinitely more positive vocation!?

Oh unequal one,

The scripture of my faith declares that

'God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,'

...

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

But, you are correct, it is true, that i am a critic of ISLAM.

It is also true that it is absolutely impossible for ISLAM to produce a harmonious, just, and stable society.

And it is also true that, much of recorded ISLAMIC history [recording that moslems were the most benevolent masters of other peoples, and that those periods of ISLAMIC dominance of other peoples were always virtuous and benevolent], has been manufactured, 'confected', so as to conceal the depraved tyranny, which is always hiding behind the veil of ISLAMIC lies.

In today's world, only a liar would deny, that ISLAM has a clear history of always seeking to erase every thought, every honest expression of man, which is critical of ISLAM.

And when i ask you to give an example of a good, and just, benevolent Sharia society, a virtuous society based in ISLAMIC law today, you can not give such an example.

Not in all of the ISLAMIC world, is there even one example, of such a virtuous society.

And ISLAM's own foundation texts [the Koran and the Hadith], are a witness against every moslem lie.

History itself is a witness against every moslem lie.

Google;

armenian genocide ottoman

The truth is, that there is no society in the world today [which is 'rightfully guided' by ISLAM], which is just and peaceful, and prosperous.

In fact, the opposite is true.

All societies in the world today, which claim to be ISLAMIC and Sharia guided, are nests of oppression, depravity, violence, injustice, and human poverty.

As to your assertion that my 'doG' would not approve of my criticism of ISLAM...

Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Emma

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #88 - Jul 11^th, 2011 at 10:36pm

AHHH --- EQ -- why did you raise the ' I ' word? Lips Sealed

AAAAAHHUUM - YADDA- ??
perhaps not a relevant post?? Huh

Yours I mean.!

And Yes - if you believe in the Bible, from which I drew my quote, then you would have to agree,... wouldn't you.?
Churches and Temples constructed by humans are declared corrupt in only the second Book of the Bible.

Later priests have obviously worked pretty hard to turn THAT one around.

Maybe that's why we only know 10 Commandments??

When I say We, I don't mean me.!!! Gasp!! Roll Eyes

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #89 - Jul 12^th, 2011 at 11:25am

Emma wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 10:36pm:

And Yes - if you believe in the Bible, from which I drew my quote, then you would have to agree,... wouldn't you.?

I am not a Hebrew.

The laws in the 1st 5 books of Moses applied to Hebrews.

The Hebrews entered into a covenant with God, to obey his laws.

....It is recorded [in the books of Moses] that after being redeemed from bondage in Egypt, the Hebrew people entered into a covenant with their holy God.

Dictionary;
covenant = =
1 a solemn agreement.
2 [theology] an agreement held to be the basis of a relationship of commitment with God.

The agreement [consent] of the people, was recorded;

"...And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do...."
Exodus 19:5-8

Are you a Hebrew jalane ?

Do God's laws apply to you ?

"I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people."

Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deuteronomy 32:8
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Emma wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 10:36pm:

Churches and Temples constructed by humans are declared corrupt in only the second Book of the Bible.

Later priests have obviously worked pretty hard to turn THAT one around.

Maybe that's why we only know 10 Commandments??

When I say We, I don't mean me.!!! Gasp!! Roll Eyes

jalane,

You should read the Gospels of Jesus.

I think that you would be interested in what he, Jesus, said about organised religion.

"....And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
"...But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
Matthew 23:1-13

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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