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The Problem of Evil (Read 42133 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #90 - Jul 12th, 2011 at 9:12pm
 
One's prose does not require the kernel
of ultimate truth,

For your spiel to be unspeakable.

But if it's profound,
truth or lies,

There will always be those

who will believe.
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #91 - Jul 12th, 2011 at 9:22pm
 
Yadda wrote on Jul 12th, 2011 at 11:25am:
Emma wrote on Jul 11th, 2011 at 10:36pm:

And Yes -  if you believe in the Bible, from which I drew my quote, then you would have to agree,... wouldn't you.?




I am not a Hebrew.

The laws in the 1st 5 books of Moses applied to Hebrews.

The Hebrews entered into a covenant with God, to obey his laws.

....It is recorded [in the books of Moses] that after being redeemed from bondage in Egypt, the Hebrew people entered into a covenant with their holy God.

Dictionary;
covenant = =
1 a solemn agreement.
2 [theology] an agreement held to be the basis of a relationship of commitment with God.


The agreement [consent] of the people, was recorded;

"...And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do...."
Exodus 19:5-8

Are you a Hebrew jalane ?

Do God's laws apply to you ?





"I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people."


Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.


Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7  The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deuteronomy 32:8
When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9  For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.







Emma wrote on Jul 11th, 2011 at 10:36pm:
Churches and Temples constructed by humans are declared corrupt in only the second Book of the Bible.

Later priests have obviously worked pretty hard to turn THAT one around.  

Maybe that's why we only know 10 Commandments??

When I say We,  I don't mean me.!!!  Gasp!!  Roll Eyes





jalane,

You should read the Gospels of Jesus.

I think that you would be interested in what he, Jesus, said about organised religion.


"....And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
"...But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
Matthew 23:1-13



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« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2011 at 5:45am by Sappho »  
 
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Emma
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #92 - Jul 12th, 2011 at 11:20pm
 
Interesting comments Yadda.

I am atheist - pls note the small a. I find humans both fascinating and infuriating.
The first five Books of the Bible only apply to..Hebrews?

I choose not to make assumptions about posters from their nom de plume...And so you say you are not a Hebrew...Despite your suggestive pseudonym....fine by me ...

and no I am not of that ethnic persuasion. Of course Jewish people come from many races, ... as do Christians, Moslems, and Buddhists. 
I fail to see how the one does not constitute the All.  And yet - our history, and for example - the history of the Jewish faith,  show so clearly that religious influence definitely has both Good and Evil outcomes.

It cannot be otherwise - if we do believe we are part of a greater whole - there MUST be a balance.

Translation???   People are people are people. Up to them to see further than their upbringing. Smiley

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #93 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 8:11am
 
Emma wrote on Jul 12th, 2011 at 11:20pm:

I choose not to make assumptions about posters from their nom de plume...

And so you say you are not a Hebrew...Despite your suggestive pseudonym

....fine by me ...





jalane,

I have said this previously on OzPol, but i will repeat it again, just for you;

I am not Jewish, and i have no knowledge of any Jewish heritage in my family.


+++

Further, regards organised religion;

If you believe that the Book of Revelation, is the
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ,"
then in that book....

Jesus said...
"...thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

Revelation 2:6
Revelation 2:15

Nicolaitans???


What does that word, Nicolaitans, refer to ?

'Nicolaitan', refers to those who [Nico] 'rule over' or 'conquer', and [the laity] 'the people'.

Jesus in Revelation, and, in the Gospels, said that he hated those hypocrites, who use the authority of 'religion' [turning religion into a 'beastly', false, worldly 'spirituality'], so as to rule over men.

Almost every religion of man does this.

Some religions [more than others] going to extreme lengths, to exert their authority over their adherents/devotees.


Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Popes???

'Papa'?


"....And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
"...But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
Matthew 23:1-13


What did Jesus say about how to worship God ?

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6  But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.




+++

Again, people who want to know the truth about God, should take some time and try to read the bible.

For anyone unfamiliar with the bible, i would suggest they start by reading the Gospels, OR, the Psalms.

For me, probably the most beautiful book of the Bible, is the book of Psalms.

If you, with a clean and humble heart, search for God, God will reveal himself to you.



Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2  He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3  He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4  In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5  He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.


Hosea 4:1
Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.


Jeremiah 9:3
And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
4  Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
5  And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.
6  Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.



DEAF AND BLIND - lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isaiah 6:9
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.




The 'Knowledge of God' spoken of in Hosea 4:1, is the knowledge of God's righteousness.

But men are following their own prideful 'wisdom'.

In their very wickedness, men imagine that they are wise.

But all that we reveal, is our rebellion against God's righteousness.

Look at the wickedness in this world, today.

A wickedness most prevalent among mankind's highest echelons.


All, coming from man's prideful 'wisdom'.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Emma
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #94 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 10:06pm
 
Yadda ???  
Thanks - but NO THANKS.
When your opening is --

"If you believe that the Book of Revelation, is the "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," then........"    then.. honestly - you have lost me.  I don't believe  .... and so... don't waste your time.!!!


"'jalane,
I have said this previously on OzPol, but i will repeat it again, just for you;
I am not Jewish, and i have no knowledge of any Jewish heritage in my family.'"


Well there you go -  -  but I really couldn't give a continental, what you perceive yourself as.
That's up to YOU.  It matters not to me.Smiley


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Yadda
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #95 - Jul 14th, 2011 at 8:28am
 
Emma wrote on Jul 13th, 2011 at 10:06pm:
Yadda ??? 
Thanks - but NO THANKS.
When your opening is --

"If you believe that the Book of Revelation, is the "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," then........"    then.. honestly - you have lost me.  I don't believe  .... and so... don't waste your time.!!!





Exactly so.

i.e.
Atheists [ <--- with a capital A] already know, everything which they need to know.

'Life is short, so lets party on.'

"Eat, drink, and be merry. For tomorrow we die!"





As i often say to atheists;

It is your life.

And life is about making our own choices.  [....and in that way, God is just, and clever]

And i know that you [and many like you] do not see [spiritual] redemption as important.

And i know that what you love, is what this world has to offer you.

So, go your own way.

Walk your own path.

Love the world, delight in its unrighteousness.

There is no God.







+++


Proverbs 1:20
Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21  She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22  How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23  Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.



John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
....
21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.



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« Last Edit: Jul 14th, 2011 at 10:13am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Emma
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #96 - Jul 14th, 2011 at 7:33pm
 
Like I said Yadda - I'm a small 'a' atheist, and not a Bible reader. Only relatively recently i received a copy from my Mother - and , with one thought in mind, which wasn't the bits I have quoted. Finding that was just serendipity.  Old testament kicks butt..

Anything beyond the earlier Books  really doesn't interest me.!! And my interest is limited to the wish to understand a little more clearly, why people today, do as they do.

This may not make sense to you, but I can't really explain it in words.
But - you are wrong about me. Your opinion is based on your own fervor.  Please don't quote anymore Bible at me.  I've read a tiny fraction, and that is enough for me.

Jesus Christ does not have a monopoly on 'spirituality'  -  other views DO exist. Smiley
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Emma
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #97 - Jul 14th, 2011 at 7:37pm
 
And

Just have to add -   this demanding of undying love and faith, before that love is returned,  could only come from a male zealot.  A TYPICAL male zealot.  You see them everyday on the news.

Definitely NOT good for the 'health' to believe in that!!!
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #98 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 7:57am
 
Emma wrote on Jul 14th, 2011 at 7:33pm:
Like I said Yadda - I'm a small 'a' atheist, and not a Bible reader. Only relatively recently i received a copy from my Mother - and , with one thought in mind, which wasn't the bits I have quoted. Finding that was just serendipity.  Old testament kicks butt..

Anything beyond the earlier Books  really doesn't interest me.!! And my interest is limited to the wish to understand a little more clearly, why people today, do as they do.

This may not make sense to you, but I can't really explain it in words.

But - you are wrong about me. Your opinion is based on your own fervor.


Please don't quote anymore Bible at me.  I've read a tiny fraction, and that is enough for me.

Jesus Christ does not have a monopoly on 'spirituality'  -  other views DO exist. Smiley





You are probably correct.

And for that assumption [on my part] i apologise.



Its just that i look at the world of mankind today, and much of it is atheistic [....if not positively SATANIC].

And then, a person says, "I'm a small 'a' atheist".

I make assumptions.

e.g.
Take that new "Crownies" show last night, on ABC.
....like most entertainment today, reflecting a totally atheist, "Me", lifestyle.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #99 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 3:02pm
 
Quote:
yadda wrote
....like most entertainment today, reflecting a totally atheist, "Me", lifestyle.



One could argue that the religious puffing up of the ego into eternity is the ultimate "me" lifestyle. To say you want "eternal life" and to "live after death" has to be egotism blown up into gigantic proportions. At least the atheist has the humility to say he won't live on.

Religious zealotry is really disguised egotism. They hide behind slogans like "god", "scripture", "Jesus", "Mohommad", "Jihad" to give the appearance of being a humble servant to a higher authority, yet this is only a mask to hide their domineering nature.

You shouldn't be ashamed, nor should anyone else, for wanting to dominate, Yadda. Embrace God's invention of Power!
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #100 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:49pm
 
Yes Yadda - I too find our world today, generally rather ethically bankrupt, -----and morally too, if you choose a subjective stance on what people do..

And I do agree with Time -  any sort of 'breast-beating' and 'sabre-rattling' are manifestations of the ego.

How sweet it must be for those whose dogma answers all questions and silences all doubt. Sad
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #101 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 7:19am
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 3:02pm:
One could argue that the religious puffing up of the ego into eternity is the ultimate "me" lifestyle. To say you want "eternal life" and to "live after death" has to be egotism blown up into gigantic proportions. At least the atheist has the humility to say he won't live on.


Yes, an astute observation. There also seems to be a discontinuity between evangelical Christianity and the humility of the more traditional Catholic and Anglican religions.
Quote:
Humilita vos ad benedictionem Deo gratias


It seems as though the tele-evangelists have a totally different religion inspired by Mammon. They shout their prayers loudly to all and sundry and deliberately seem to lose just about everything apart from the "born-again" angle.

Quote:
Be careful about not living righteously merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven
(Matthew 6:1).

also:
Quote:
Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you
(Matthew 6:5-6).

Are pious proclamations on Internet forums a bit like praying on street corners so that people can see them? I don't know. I leave the intricacy of a religion to its adherents.
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...
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #102 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 10:08am
 
American evangelical Christianity is a militant perversion of the Christian message lead by charismatic orators (not unlike Adolf Hitler in their firebrand) who have ironically ascended to power and made multiple millions of dollars preaching to their congregations, hatred of their sense of poverty which, they insist, is the result of their disenfranchisement

In that sense, they are not a religious movement as much as they are a crypto-fascist (or perhaps a crypto-communist) one... Their message, "Make war on your own poverty and those who impose it on you".
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #103 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 5:10pm
 
Emma wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:49pm:
Yes Yadda - I too find our world today, generally rather ethically bankrupt, -----and morally too, if you choose a subjective stance on what people do..

And I do agree with Time -  any sort of 'breast-beating' and 'sabre-rattling' are manifestations of the ego.

How sweet it must be for those whose dogma answers all questions and silences all doubt. Sad




Time, jalane,

I apologise for my 'strident' ego.

Yes, i do have one.




Dear Father,
Please teach my heart your ways.
Please forgive my foolishness, my imaginings, my pride, and my vanity.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #104 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 5:23pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 16th, 2011 at 7:19am:

Are pious proclamations on Internet forums a bit like praying on street corners so that people can see them? I don't know. I leave the intricacy of a religion to its adherents.




Hi muso,

Nice to see you back here.


+++


Yes muso, i am guilty,   ....maybe.      Wink



2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7  Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8  For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9  (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10  Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Quench not the Spirit.
20  Despise not prophesyings.
21  Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22  Abstain from all appearance of evil.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15  And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.



Yadda, the contrite rebuker.     Wink

But maybe, maybe, also justified ?



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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