Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism a Religion?

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #465 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:20pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:08pm:

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

What is the moral dimension of science?

What is the moral dimension of an inflexible set of principles that is locked in the first century CE ? Our world is much more complex than theirs. We have a moral obligation to adapt to the needs of an ever changing society.

1. You are not answering - actually avoiding - the question.

2. Where does your moral obligation come from? It's not scientific.

OK, I'll stop chuckling at the irony of you accusing me of avoiding the question.

If you read past the first few lines of my response, you'll find that I answered the first question, which related to the moral dimension. As far as your second question about moral obligation, part of our morality comes innately from our biological evolution. The remainder comes from our social environment.

What's your answer? God? The problem is that God has a speech impediment. He speaks through human beings, and they sometimes garble the message from the Deity, well intentioned as it may be.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:27pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #466 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:27pm muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:20pm: part of our morality comes innately from our biological evolution. You can't possible be serious. This is just too risible. This is what Hume was talking about, the inexplicable leap from is to ought. And now you are performing that inadmissible leap on behalf of science.
Back to top	IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #467 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:30pm muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm: Fortunately we are hard-wired for flexibility, OK i read past your first lines. I am still laughing. 'We are had wired' - God the electrician?? Or what? Chance hardwired us?
Back to top	IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #468 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:32pm muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm: . It is up to us as communities to think through and discuss and determine what is right, and where necessary, make policies to implement what is right, all with prioritised but not absolute regard for individual differences. How banal can you get?
Back to top	IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #469 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:34pm

Well, speaking for myself, forbidden apples and serpents seem to be even more risible.

In practice, morality comes both from the individual and society. That's the empirical answer that I should have given without going into the underlying causes, but it's undeniable that every one of us has an innate morality that comes from being human.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #470 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:35pm

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:20pm:

The problem is that God has a speech impediment. He speaks through human beings, and they sometimes garble the message from the Deity, well intentioned as it may be.

Yeah, we need God's Pravda, to tell us what to think and do. Who needs freedom?? It's just too much personal responsibility!! Why can't we just have a fuhrer?

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #471 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:37pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:30pm:

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Fortunately we are hard-wired for flexibility,

OK i read past your first lines. I am still laughing.

'We are had wired' - God the electrician?? Or what? Chance hardwired us?

How about adaptation to environmental constraints? I'm not sure when you get "chance" from.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #472 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:37pm

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:34pm:

Well, speaking for myself, forbidden apples and serpents seem to be even more risible.

In practice, morality comes both from the individual and society. That's the empirical answer that I should have given without going into the underlying causes, but it's undeniable that every one of us has an innate morality that comes from being human.

Except human relations are not subject to scientific formulas.
So much for empirical answers.

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #473 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:42pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:32pm:

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

.

It is up to us as communities to think through and discuss and determine what is right, and where necessary, make policies to implement what is right, all with prioritised but not absolute regard for individual differences.

How banal can you get?

That's how it works. Life is both banal and incredibly special. If we want to achieve the best society, we need to have a participative democratic system. I'm a little surprised that you'd prefer theocracy to democracy though.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #474 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:43pm

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:37pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:30pm:

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Fortunately we are hard-wired for flexibility,

OK i read past your first lines. I am still laughing.

'We are had wired' - God the electrician?? Or what? Chance hardwired us?

How about adaptation to environmental constraints? I'm not sure when you get "chance" from.

So human art, science, politics have come out of environmental constraints?
and all the other species that have concurrently experienced the same environmental constraints - well, that's different, isn't it?

The thing about the scientistic view is that it has no more credible foundation than magic or religion. It is as magical and wonderful and unbelievable as the religious view. It requires a leap of faith, in other words.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #475 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:45pm muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:42pm: I'm a little surprised that you'd prefer theocracy to democracy though. Not that I said anything remotely pointing in that direction, but carry on. Inventing thing is what scientists do, after all.
Back to top	IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #476 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:45pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:35pm:

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:20pm:

The problem is that God has a speech impediment. He speaks through human beings, and they sometimes garble the message from the Deity, well intentioned as it may be.

Yeah, we need God's Pravda, to tell us what to think and do. Who needs freedom?? It's just too much personal responsibility!! Why can't we just have a fuhrer?

You do want a theocracy. Well Allahu Akbar, who'd have thunk?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:58pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #477 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:57pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:43pm:

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:37pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:30pm:

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Fortunately we are hard-wired for flexibility,

OK i read past your first lines. I am still laughing.

'We are had wired' - God the electrician?? Or what? Chance hardwired us?

How about adaptation to environmental constraints? I'm not sure when you get "chance" from.

So human art, science, politics have come out of environmental constraints?

Well some would say that the best art comes out of the deepest despair and most tragic circumstances, and as Johnson said "The prospect of being hanged focuses the mind wonderfully", but why have you changed the subject?

We were talking about morality.

Quote:

The thing about the scientistic view is that it has no more credible foundation than magic or religion. It is as magical and wonderful and unbelievable as the religious view. It requires a leap of faith, in other words.

Being methodical and systematic doesn't require a leap of faith, and all I described was a methodical and systematic approach with democratic consulation. The method is the foundation.

Serpents in gardens with forbidden apples is no basis for a system of morality. Hmmm reminds me of something:

Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #478 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:59pm

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:45pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:35pm:

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:20pm:

The problem is that God has a speech impediment. He speaks through human beings, and they sometimes garble the message from the Deity, well intentioned as it may be.

Yeah, we need God's Pravda, to tell us what to think and do. Who needs freedom?? It's just too much personal responsibility!! Why can't we just have a fuhrer?

You do want a theocracy. Well Allahu Akbar, who'd have thunk?

I was parodying you. (not that you didn't fully realise)

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #479 - Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:06am

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:57pm:

all I described was a methodical and systematic approach with democratic consultation. The method is the foundation.

Serpents in gardens with forbidden apples on the other hand require a considerable leap of faith.

I love a methodical, democratic consultation. But what do we do with the consultants who do not share our love for democratic consultation? Exclude them? Or press them into obedience to democratic principles? What does science say on this? What's the best scientific method to have everyone fall in line with your 'systematic democratic consultation'?

Back to top

IP Logged