Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism a Religion?

damien

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 639
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #540 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 1:52pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:48am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 11:49pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 1:38pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 7:51pm:

Jewish atheism is like all other atheism - debating in the glow of self-made electric light whether to believe or not to believe in the sun.

'whether to believe or not to believe in the sun'??

Not at all... More like debating whether or not its likely a cosmic entity is peddling a bike to drive a dynamo that powers the sun.

At midday, on a cloudless day, i believe in the sun.

But at midnight, what sun! ?????

Hume might like it, but there's always the sun.

Its the middle of the night, where is teh sun then ?

And don't tell me; "Its coming."

I don't believe.

I don't believe, in 'tomorrow'.

Tongue

Geez, the sun is always there!!

damien,

No, no!

If i can't see it, right now, then it does not exist.

I'm sure of it. Tongue

In that case electricity does not exist!!
Or the air that you are right at this moment breathing!!

Back to top

The Coalition won!! Now get over it!!

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21889
A cat with a view

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #541 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:06pm

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:48am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 11:49pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 1:38pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 7:51pm:

Jewish atheism is like all other atheism - debating in the glow of self-made electric light whether to believe or not to believe in the sun.

'whether to believe or not to believe in the sun'??

Not at all... More like debating whether or not its likely a cosmic entity is peddling a bike to drive a dynamo that powers the sun.

At midday, on a cloudless day, i believe in the sun.

But at midnight, what sun! ?????

Hume might like it, but there's always the sun.

Its the middle of the night, where is teh sun then ?

And don't tell me; "Its coming."

I don't believe.

I don't believe, in 'tomorrow'.

Tongue

Geez, the sun is always there!!

damien,

No, no!

If i can't see it, right now, then it does not exist.

I'm sure of it. Tongue

In that case electricity does not exist!!
Or the air that you are right at this moment breathing!!

Exactly so, damien! Wink

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

damien

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 639
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #542 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:10pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:48am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 11:49pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 1:38pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 7:51pm:

Jewish atheism is like all other atheism - debating in the glow of self-made electric light whether to believe or not to believe in the sun.

'whether to believe or not to believe in the sun'??

Not at all... More like debating whether or not its likely a cosmic entity is peddling a bike to drive a dynamo that powers the sun.

At midday, on a cloudless day, i believe in the sun.

But at midnight, what sun! ?????

Hume might like it, but there's always the sun.

Its the middle of the night, where is teh sun then ?

And don't tell me; "Its coming."

I don't believe.

I don't believe, in 'tomorrow'.

Tongue

Geez, the sun is always there!!

damien,

No, no!

If i can't see it, right now, then it does not exist.

I'm sure of it. Tongue

In that case electricity does not exist!!
Or the air that you are right at this moment breathing!!

Exactly so, damien! Wink

So, how do you power your PC
And since there is no air, could you be an alien?

Back to top

The Coalition won!! Now get over it!!

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21889
A cat with a view

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #543 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:15pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

Soren wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

Refusing to engage with the idea of god (atheism) is an unimaginatively rebellious stance. It is temperamental hissyfit rather than an honest, self-revealing before one's own eyes kind of stance. I think a lot of it is really anticleticalism.

Still, being militantly or mildly against something that doesn't actually require you to be for or against it is quite jejune. Living your life as defined by opposition to something you don't believe in - how wasteful, not to say manic, is that?

We're not born scared of the dark.

We acquire that fear, during our early years, of goblins, ghosts and bogeymen who live in closets and come out to haunt us at night.

And we learn or invent mantras to keep us safe and swap them with our peers (along with tales of terror to justify our burgeoning belief in metaphysical menace).

But comes the day (usually) when, along with Santa, we begin to doubt our earliest beliefs and realise, sometimes with nostalgic regret, that our evil entities of the night do not really exist except in our fertile imagination... And we no longer believe.

And from that day, when things go bump in the night, we're sure enough that hobgoblins are not the cause, but something mundane - something responding to gravity or motion (more likely) - has collided with another or fallen.

But we do not 'believe in our disbelief' as we once believed in ghosts in the closet.

We are (if you must) 'a-spectre-ists' - and not from having thrown a hissy fit - but from having naturally grown away from believing in the fantastically improbable and towards acceptance of a more mundane (and, yes, much less colourful), yet eminently more likely, truth.

Yadda walks on water, for muso.....

Yadda wrote on Feb 1^st, 2009 at 8:41am:

.......Every sunrise, every new blade of grass, every flower.

But these miracles are now too 'common' for the eyes of we, 'wise' men, to acknowledge these events as wondrous.

Know what it is to be a child...
To see a world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

William Blake, Auguries of Innocence

When we were children, every second question from our lips was, "Why?", or "How?".

When we 'grow up' in this world, many of us grow too 'wise', and become too dull of mind.

We no longer see with the eyes of a child, we no longer see the TRUTH of God's creation, with the awe of a child.

1 Corinthians 2:14
.....the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him....

Today, God hides himself from our 'common' [worldly] understanding.

Only those of us with the 'child' still within still see the wonder, look away from the world, and ask, "Why?"

Personally, i believe that we are never closer [in this life] to our God 'consciousness', than when we first 'arrive' here.

That is why little children still do [seem to] believe, in the reality of 'magical' experiences, and believe in things not seen [with their eyes].

So innocently, children can accept, what they encounter, or what they experience.

But so, so, soon, within a few years, that consciousness , that innocence, will fade away - as we 'go native', and as this 'reality' kicks in!

Luke 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Psalms 131:1
LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21889
A cat with a view

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #544 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:18pm

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:48am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 11:49pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 1:38pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 7:51pm:

Jewish atheism is like all other atheism - debating in the glow of self-made electric light whether to believe or not to believe in the sun.

'whether to believe or not to believe in the sun'??

Not at all... More like debating whether or not its likely a cosmic entity is peddling a bike to drive a dynamo that powers the sun.

At midday, on a cloudless day, i believe in the sun.

But at midnight, what sun! ?????

Hume might like it, but there's always the sun.

Its the middle of the night, where is teh sun then ?

And don't tell me; "Its coming."

I don't believe.

I don't believe, in 'tomorrow'.

Tongue

Geez, the sun is always there!!

damien,

No, no!

If i can't see it, right now, then it does not exist.

I'm sure of it. Tongue

In that case electricity does not exist!!
Or the air that you are right at this moment breathing!!

Exactly so, damien! Wink

So, how do you power your PC
And since there is no air, could you be an alien?

damien,

I jest with you.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

damien

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 639
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #545 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 3:34pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:18pm:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 2:06pm:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

damien wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 7:48am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 11:49pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 7:19pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2013 at 1:38pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 7:51pm:

Jewish atheism is like all other atheism - debating in the glow of self-made electric light whether to believe or not to believe in the sun.

'whether to believe or not to believe in the sun'??

Not at all... More like debating whether or not its likely a cosmic entity is peddling a bike to drive a dynamo that powers the sun.

At midday, on a cloudless day, i believe in the sun.

But at midnight, what sun! ?????

Hume might like it, but there's always the sun.

Its the middle of the night, where is teh sun then ?

And don't tell me; "Its coming."

I don't believe.

I don't believe, in 'tomorrow'.

Tongue

Geez, the sun is always there!!

damien,

No, no!

If i can't see it, right now, then it does not exist.

I'm sure of it. Tongue

In that case electricity does not exist!!
Or the air that you are right at this moment breathing!!

Exactly so, damien! Wink

So, how do you power your PC
And since there is no air, could you be an alien?

damien,

I jest with you.

Guess what - so do I!!

Back to top

The Coalition won!! Now get over it!!

IP Logged

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #546 - Apr 14^th, 2013 at 9:31pm You should stop jesting with yourself.
Back to top	1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #547 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 14^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

Soren wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

Refusing to engage with the idea of god (atheism) is an unimaginatively rebellious stance. It is temperamental hissyfit rather than an honest, self-revealing before one's own eyes kind of stance. I think a lot of it is really anticleticalism.

Still, being militantly or mildly against something that doesn't actually require you to be for or against it is quite jejune. Living your life as defined by opposition to something you don't believe in - how wasteful, not to say manic, is that?

We're not born scared of the dark.

We acquire that fear, during our early years, of goblins, ghosts and bogeymen who live in closets and come out to haunt us at night.

And we learn or invent mantras to keep us safe and swap them with our peers (along with tales of terror to justify our burgeoning belief in metaphysical menace).

But comes the day (usually) when, along with Santa, we begin to doubt our earliest beliefs and realise, sometimes with nostalgic regret, that our evil entities of the night do not really exist except in our fertile imagination... And we no longer believe.

And from that day, when things go bump in the night, we're sure enough that hobgoblins are not the cause, but something mundane - something responding to gravity or motion (more likely) - has collided with another or fallen.

But we do not 'believe in our disbelief' as we once believed in ghosts in the closet.

We are (if you must) 'a-spectre-ists' - and not from having thrown a hissy fit - but from having naturally grown away from believing in the fantastically improbable and towards acceptance of a more mundane (and, yes, much less colourful), yet eminently more likely, truth.

I am sure that the children of Mao's or Stalin's politburo were all afraid in the dark. In other words, religion is not some sort of grown-up continuation of childhood scares of ghosts and hobgoblins (although there was a disconcertingly large number of adults who were reading Harry Trotter books in public. WHo knows how many did so in private.)

WHat you are advancing, at heart, is that without religion we would all gather around the white piano and sing along with John and Yoko. But that is even more fantastically improbably and crazy-unbelievable than religion.

On this I agree, though - anyone post-pubescent who is religious in the way a kid believes in Santa or the easter bunny is mad.

Back to top

IP Logged

Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21889 A cat with a view	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #548 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 6:55pm I do not consider myself to be 'normal'. Rather, i see myself as being [one of those] on the periphery of 'the human experience'. Definitely 'out there', but not mad. ......and post-pubescent. Dictionary; mad = = mentally ill; insane. extremely foolish or ill-advised. ???
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #549 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 9:34pm Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:58pm: religion is not some sort of grown-up continuation of childhood scares of ghosts and hobgoblins Ah, sure t'is
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

damien Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 639 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #550 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 9:43pm Religion is an organized collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. So it can also include the belief in atheism!
Back to top	The Coalition won!! Now get over it!! IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #551 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 10:49pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 9:34pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

religion is not some sort of grown-up continuation of childhood scares of ghosts and hobgoblins

Ah, sure t'is

Well, then your entire culture is based on ghosts and hobgoblins. But how would you know that, since any cultural assessment you make is from within that ghostly culture itself. It's in your language, your ethical landscape, even your idea about universal human rights is based on elementary Christian theology. Your ideas about kindness and politeness to strangers is based on basic Christian dogma.
And so forth. You are entirely circumscribed by the ideas produced by 2000 years of Christianity. Even your doubting and rejection of Christianity are rooted in Christian doctrine. It is the way the world makes sense to you.
You do not need to confess faith in the catechism to be shot through and through with Christianity. And given that it is in your cultural and personal DNA, kicking against it so ferociously is a bit like an emo cutting himself. It's no answer, it's just neurotic. Jung said it somewhere that past midlife all neurosis is connected to the struggle to make sense of the numenous.
Chucking your entire cultural and imaginative context overboard as just so much ghostly hobgobliny pre-mature nonsense is neurotic in that very sense Jung identified.

SOB

Back to top

IP Logged

Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21889 A cat with a view	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #552 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 10:57pm Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 10:49pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 9:34pm: Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:58pm: religion is not some sort of grown-up continuation of childhood scares of ghosts and hobgoblins Ah, sure t'is Well, then...........Jung identified. SOB SOB !! ??? LOL
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #553 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 7:17am

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 10:49pm:

Well, then your entire culture is based on ghosts and hobgoblins. But how would you know that, since any cultural assessment you make is from within that ghostly culture itself. It's in your language, your ethical landscape, even your idea about universal human rights is based on elementary Christian theology. Your ideas about kindness and politeness to strangers is based on basic Christian dogma.
And so forth. You are entirely circumscribed by the ideas produced by 2000 years of Christianity. Even your doubting and rejection of Christianity are rooted in Christian doctrine. It is the way the world makes sense to you.
You do not need to confess faith in the catechism to be shot through and through with Christianity. And given that it is in your cultural and personal DNA, kicking against it so ferociously is a bit like an emo cutting himself. It's no answer, it's just neurotic. Jung said it somewhere that past midlife all neurosis is connected to the struggle to make sense of the numenous.
Chucking your entire cultural and imaginative context overboard as just so much ghostly hobgobliny pre-mature nonsense is neurotic in that very sense Jung identified.

You seem incapable of imagining an atheist as anything other than an angry militant antitheist.

Naturally, it's easier to condescend to that kind of invented one dimensional character.

I am not a militant antitheist. I am not an antitheist... Hell, I'm not even slightly miffed at the Catholic Church... And I don't regret my Irish Catholic upbringing.

I came to disbelieve the central mythos of Christianity (virgin birth, resurrection, miracles et al), the same way I came to disbelieve the idea of ghosts and goblins... And, by all accounts, I'm in esteemed company... It's now almost a joke within the Anglican community how many clerics, including Bishops and Archbishops who are frankly agnostic... And I can tell you its not confined to the Anglican Church... There are large numbers of Catholic clerics who, while they believe in Christian ethics (and generally think the institution of Christianity is a force for good), do not believe the Christian mythos.

And, given George Pell's schoolboyish responses to Richard Dawkins some months back, I wouldn't be surprised if that old Cardinal Stormtrooper (a Ratzinger rottweiler) has his doubts too.

BTW on the subject of Ratzinger... Check out the photo! You gotta hand it to the Krauts... They have the gift of genius innovation! By Ratzinger's 'resignation', we now have de facto 2 popes, for the first time in history working side by side as allies... co-regents if you will!

Deutschland über alles!

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #554 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 7:17am:

I came to disbelieve the central mythos of Christianity (virgin birth, resurrection, miracles et al), the same way I came to disbelieve the idea of ghosts and goblins... And, by all accounts, I'm in esteemed company...

This is itself an example of condescention to a kind of invented one dimensional character, to use your formulation.
It is pretty shallow to maintain that 2000 of Christian civilisation is based on the same kind of childish pre-pubescent fears and mythology and imaginative complexity as ghosts and hobgoblins - even if there were/are Christians who do believe in ghosts an hobgoblins. This is like saying that because, say, SOB is a narrow-minded, unthinking atheists who has never in 50 years progressed beyond 'atheism is a lack of belief' no matter what the conversational context, therefor atheism is based on this monomaniac stupidity in the hearts and minds of every atheist.

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

Back to top

IP Logged