Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism a Religion?

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21898
A cat with a view

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #450 - Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:31pm

muso wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 9:34pm:

Quote:

As every dictator has seen, what needs to change is language if minds are to be changed. When this is grasped, the antennae go up for all the little linguistic undermining and violation of a commonly accepted meaning of words and concept and notions.

Absolutely. That's exactly how Christianity grew in political strength. Christianity (in many of its mutations) has always been a highly political movement.

Christianity and every other organised religion of man, has always morphed into a political 'worldly' structure.

Why ?

muso,

The answer is that we cannot help ourselves. [.....but, God can!]

It is the fate of [we] humans to always corrupt what is pure.

Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

We chose to kill [to destroy] 'God', who came among us, as a human being.

We.

We.

We are destroyers, and the corrupter's, of all what is pure.

No ?

It is in our nature, to be corrupt, and to destroy, and corrupt even ourselves.

No ?

In its purest form, religion is the search for truth.
...or at least, it should be, imo.

Our [human] attempts to pursue 'Religion', is our attempt to reach for the divine, because we know that we are standing up to our ankles in a bog of mud.

And we don't want to be here!

I know that i do not!

RELIGION - the 'search' for what is true;

But the purity of 'Religion', once it is 'pursued' by men, has always been corrupted, by those men who sought its purity.

It is not their fault.

They are/were, just human beings.

And they transformed what should/could have been the purity of 'Religion', into a 'monster' [or, a BEAST!] with a political hierarchy, which could be wielded to serve carnal ends, instead of develop our spiritual health.

It is not their fault.

They are/were, just human beings.

But God will save us, God will redeem us.

But do you want to be redeemed ?

Or do you want to be a destroyer ?

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.

+++

Worship and Being Human
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1335652989/78#78

Mankind, just look at our history
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1313024041/0#0
Quote:

Mankind, just look at our history

Look, at the behaviour of mankind throughout history.

Is our human behaviour, historically, indicative of 'something', about us which we innately can feel is true, even while we have no tangible evidence, of what many of us can feel ???

It is a fact, that for all of recorded human history [as an expression of man's desire to 'commune' with the 'gods'], man has built temples.

And on a purely psycho-logical level, WHY is that?

And to all of you 'rationalists' and 'scientists' out there!,
....even if you are an atheist,
....doesn't that behaviour say something about us [mankind] ?

MANKIND'S FASCINATION WITH BUILDING TEMPLES [a house, for a 'god', to dwell in]......

....Can i suggest, that mankind's compulsive behaviour in this regard, flows from an inner need, a subconscious need? [within physical man], to acknowledge another 'reality' which [indeed] many of us sense,
....i.e the existence of a [spiritual] God.

Or, is mankind's inclination to 'temple building' a reflection of a flaw in our psyche ?

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #451 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:07am

Soren wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

What?? Did you actually make a case? I didn't notice.
Is sneering now (again) the 'truth"?

When you abandon any semblance of logical argument in favour of insult, including calling the other a child, while you're the one throwing a tantrum, you know you lost. If you don't everybody else does.

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #452 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:08am

Yadda wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 11:31pm:

Christianity and every other organised religion of man, has always morphed into a political 'worldly' structure.

Good! I'll remember that and quote it back to you some time.

Yadda,

At least you are honest enough to say what you believe. A lot of non Christians argue for Christianity because of the cultural inheritance alone.

I don't have a particular bone to pick with Christianity. It's not important for me to emphatically state my lack of belief in any God.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:21am by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #453 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 9:11am

Grey wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

What?? Did you actually make a case? I didn't notice.
Is sneering now (again) the 'truth"?

When you abandon any semblance of logical argument in favour of insult, including calling the other a child, while you're the one throwing a tantrum, you know you lost. If you don't everybody else does.

That's just Soren. He knows all that already, so you don't have to posture. It detracts from the discussion.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #454 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:02am

muso wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 6:29am:

Soren wrote on Mar 14^th, 2013 at 9:32pm:

Saying that god i just an invention may be seen as clever and transgressive but it is really a boring and low-brow avoidance of the question. If not 'god' what then is the ground of being? To declare the very question verboten (the next easy step of the unthinking) is too stupid to waste time on engaging with. It is a case of the horizon being wiped away with the silly flourish of declaring all horizons unnecessary.

I didn't say that the god of perception was an invention. I said that it was the "god" of humanity through the amazing neural network that we share.

"God the Creator" is an entirely different entity. Traditional religions tend to lump them together. To address that particular niche, the God of the Deists fits the bill admirably at those times when you feel a pressing need to answer the unanswerable, and it can be answered in whatever flavour you like, including pantheism. (Pantheism is effectively a special type of atheism.)

The desire to connect the two is an emotional argument.

The world we live in is a joint venture made by man and god. Whether you like it or not, this has been the exclusive foundation of human perception for all but the last 2-3 centuries, and even now, it is by no means a spent and exhausted perception.
Man is given freedom and an ethical responsibility to read the world he himself did not create but which is presented to him like a book to read and comprehend.

Scientific man will read this book as if neither the book nor the reader had any moral dimension. Religious man reads the world with his own freedom and moral responsibility uppermost in his mind.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #455 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:14am

Grey wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

What?? Did you actually make a case? I didn't notice.
Is sneering now (again) the 'truth"?

When you abandon any semblance of logical argument in favour of insult, including calling the other a child, while you're the one throwing a tantrum, you know you lost. If you don't everybody else does.

I am not trowing a tantrum. I am pointing out the childishness of much of the kind of critique of religion that you present. It is the critique 17 year olds mount when they perceive, for the first time, that their dad is a bit of a hypocrite. They discover a foible or three and instantly the entire institution of fatherhood is to be discarded.
Every 17 year old goes through this, just as every 17 year old comes up with your kind of critique of religion.
And yet, fatherhood remains, religion remains. Why?

The 17 year olds answer, of curse, is to conjure up some conspiracy and secret, powerful forces of evil. Or that everybody but 17 year olds are completely stupid.

Yawn.i

Back to top

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21898
A cat with a view

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #456 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:22am

Quote:

The world we live in is a joint venture made by man and god. Whether you like it or not, this has been the exclusive foundation of human perception for all but the last 2-3 centuries, and even now, it is by no means a spent and exhausted perception.

Man is given freedom and an ethical responsibility to read the world he himself did not create but which is presented to him like a book to read and comprehend.

Scientific man will read this book as if neither the book nor the reader had any moral dimension.

Religious man reads the world with his own freedom and moral responsibility uppermost in his mind.

Is there any advantage to the man who knows how to please God ?

We can see all around us, that those who conduct themselves according to this world, that they do not have any 'guidance', to enable [to empower?] themselves to do what is right.

Whereas, if a person knows what is right and lawful [though he live in the world], he can set his will to do what is right.

Knowledge is power-ful.

And mere knowledge of what is 'right', is beneficial to us.

To come to knowledge - is our 'work' here.

But men are lazy.

Proverbs 29:18
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

Proverbs 3:1
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21898 A cat with a view	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #457 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:35am Yadda wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:22am: To come to knowledge - is our 'work' here. But men are lazy. And of course, the delights that are 'on offer' within the world, ...are a strong distraction to us.
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #458 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:11pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:14am:

Grey wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 1:07am:

Soren wrote on Mar 15^th, 2013 at 8:53pm:

What?? Did you actually make a case? I didn't notice.
Is sneering now (again) the 'truth"?

When you abandon any semblance of logical argument in favour of insult, including calling the other a child, while you're the one throwing a tantrum, you know you lost. If you don't everybody else does.

I am not trowing a tantrum. I am pointing out the childishness of much of the kind of critique of religion that you present. It is the critique 17 year olds mount when they perceive, for the first time, that their dad is a bit of a hypocrite. They discover a foible or three and instantly the entire institution of fatherhood is to be discarded.
Every 17 year old goes through this, just as every 17 year old comes up with your kind of critique of religion.
And yet, fatherhood remains, religion remains. Why?

The 17 year olds answer, of curse, is to conjure up some conspiracy and secret, powerful forces of evil. Or that everybody but 17 year olds are completely stupid.

Yawn.

More bad analogies. Fathers make mistakes, but they'd have to be bloody awful for children to deny their existence; even then it's only a figurative denial. Atheists don't point at god's mistakes, they point to the mistake of belief in a deity.

It all comes back to one question, 'first cause'. The one question to which there is no answer; other than 'I don't know'. Do atheists conjure up, 'secret powerful forces of evil'? Of course not, religion does that. Religion morphs the 'god of love' into a god of terror. Religion bends good ethical consideration to its will, accommadates the will of the powerful and oppresses women and the under privileged. Religion is the great lie that contorts, distorts and grows its web of deceit amongst the ignorant.

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #459 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:47pm

Grey wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:11pm:

It all comes back to one question, 'first cause'. The one question to which there is no answer; other than 'I don't know'. Do atheists conjure up, 'secret powerful forces of evil'? Of course not, religion does that. Religion morphs the 'god of love' into a god of terror. Religion bends good ethical consideration to its will, accommadates the will of the powerful and oppresses women and the under privileged. Religion is the great lie that contorts, distorts and grows its web of deceit amongst the ignorant.

- and the attempted answer to first cause certainly doesn't require a full-blown Abrahamic God complete with sheep, Frankinsense and Myrrh. The non interventionist Deist concept is the entry level god, but it's pretty dead and uninteresting.

First cause gives no free passes to Christianity or Islam for that matter.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:57pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #460 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 12:55pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:02am:

The world we live in is a joint venture made by man and god. Whether you like it or not, this has been the exclusive foundation of human perception for all but the last 2-3 centuries, and even now, it is by no means a spent and exhausted perception.

All???? Where? Not even in Europe.

Quote:

Scientific man will read this book as if neither the book nor the reader had any moral dimension. Religious man reads the world with his own freedom and moral responsibility uppermost in his mind.

OK, so scientists have no moral dimension Roll Eyes

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #461 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 7:54pm What is the moral dimension of science?
Back to top	IP Logged

Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21898 A cat with a view	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #462 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 8:33pm Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 7:54pm: What is the moral dimension of science? Integrity ? Dictionary; integrity= = 1 the quality of having strong moral principles. 2 the state of being whole. Google; scientific fraud
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #463 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

What is the moral dimension of science?

What is the moral dimension of an inflexible set of principles that is locked in the first century CE ? Our world is much more complex than theirs. We have a moral obligation to adapt to the needs of an ever changing society.

Fortunately we are hard-wired for flexibility, and we each have the opportunity to contemplate our moral principles and modify them, or even reject them to achieve minimum risk and minimum harm. The process is entirely natural, but very dynamic.

It is up to us as communities to think through and discuss and determine what is right, and where necessary, make policies to implement what is right, all with prioritised but not absolute regard for individual differences.

If that sounds incredibly similar to the scientific method, then it's probably not so coincidental.

Quote:

Google;

scientific fraud

Google "The impropriety of religious exemptions to child abuse laws"

Where is the moral dimension there?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:11pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #464 - Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:08pm

muso wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 7:54pm:

What is the moral dimension of science?

What is the moral dimension of an inflexible set of principles that is locked in the first century CE ? Our world is much more complex than theirs. We have a moral obligation to adapt to the needs of an ever changing society.

1. You are not answering - actually avoiding - the question.

2. Where does your moral obligation come from? It's not scientific.

Back to top

IP Logged