Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism a Religion?

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #555 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 10:20pm

Soren wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

You use the term 'true' so loosely, such that anything that can be felt is necessarily 'true'.

Disbelief of any proposition is therefore 'true', belief (in anything) is then also necessarily 'true'... etc...

It reduces 'truth' to a meaningless and redundant concept that refers to no particular quality in a proposition at all.

If someone believes they are possessed by a devil and acts in way they believe people act when possessed by a devil, it doesn't follow that it is true they are possessed by a devil.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #556 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 7:27am

Soren wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 7:17am:

I came to disbelieve the central mythos of Christianity (virgin birth, resurrection, miracles et al), the same way I came to disbelieve the idea of ghosts and goblins... And, by all accounts, I'm in esteemed company...

This is itself an example of condescention to a kind of invented one dimensional character, to use your formulation.
It is pretty shallow to maintain that 2000 of Christian civilisation is based on the same kind of childish pre-pubescent fears and mythology and imaginative complexity as ghosts and hobgoblins - even if there were/are Christians who do believe in ghosts an hobgoblins. This is like saying that because, say, SOB is a narrow-minded, unthinking atheists who has never in 50 years progressed beyond 'atheism is a lack of belief' no matter what the conversational context, therefor atheism is based on this monomaniac stupidity in the hearts and minds of every atheist.

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

Soren,

To summarise, you're an atheist. right?

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #557 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 7:34am "Gerry, just remember... It's not a lie... If you believe it" Or, as L Ron Hubbard once put it... "If its true for you, then its true".
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #558 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:12am

Soren wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

Scary. That's what I've been saying all along - but it goes beyond that. It's a shared experience through the neural network of humanity, and in that way, God and Christianity come alive in a very real way.

"God moves in mysterious ways."

It annoys "died in the wool" Atheists enormously when I say that, but hey?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #559 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:16am

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:12am:

Soren wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

Scary. That's what I've been saying all along.

Yairs... That's what I was thinking...

So who ate who?

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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10266 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #560 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:17am Question: How do you validate the meaning of life through a materialist approach?
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #561 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:17am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:16am:

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:12am:

Soren wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

Scary. That's what I've been saying all along.

Yairs... That's what I was thinking...

So who ate who?

burp

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #562 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:19am Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:17am: Question: How do you validate the meaning of life through a materialist approach? You register it through Bigpond Movies and pay a fee I think.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #563 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:20am

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:17am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:16am:

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:12am:

Soren wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

Scary. That's what I've been saying all along.

Yairs... That's what I was thinking...

So who ate who?

burp

Is that you, Soren?

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #564 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:22am NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:20am: Is that you, Soren? No, but I have terminal dyspepsia
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #565 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:29am muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:22am: NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:20am: Is that you, Soren? No, but I have terminal dyspepsia I hope so... Otherwise it might be life changing if Soren finds the exit.
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #566 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:58am

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:19am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:17am:

Question: How do you validate the meaning of life through a materialist approach?

You register it through Bigpond Movies and pay a fee I think.

I know it's a joke, but it actually does have a strong element of truth in it.
A pure materialist approach cannot explain much beyond continual self-fulfilling moments.

I am willing to listen to arguments to the contrary.

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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10266 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #567 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 9:26am It is why shopping and accumulating "stuff" is probably our number one pastime. Because modern man finds it difficult to get beyond the material to satiate himself.
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Yadda

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #568 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 9:42am

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:19am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:17am:

Question: How do you validate the meaning of life through a materialist approach?

You register it through Bigpond Movies and pay a fee I think.

Atheists believe that the material world can satisfy many human beings [satisfy our 'inner needs' ? ].

Many believe that consumerism is the 'God' of choice [pun intended], of most of mankind.

Man will learn that a life lived without a moral compass, will only produce confusion, emptiness, and sorrow.

Eventually, we will all come to that place of understanding, imo.

This life is a journey, to explore [i.e. where we explore] what is means to 'be'.

It is a journey, back to God.

???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #569 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:12am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 10:20pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

You use the term 'true' so loosely, such that anything that can be felt is necessarily 'true'.

Disbelief of any proposition is therefore 'true', belief (in anything) is then also necessarily 'true'... etc...

It reduces 'truth' to a meaningless and redundant concept that refers to no particular quality in a proposition at all.

If someone believes they are possessed by a devil and acts in way they believe people act when possessed by a devil, it doesn't follow that it is true they are possessed by a devil.

I am not extending the idea of 'true' to every concievable private thought and feeling - that exaggerated characterisation is all too typical of bad faith atheism (to coing a phrase).

I am saying that there are universal human experiences, shared human experiences, shared, talked about, mutually recognised human experiences that we also call true because we recognised the veracity of the reported experience of them. And this is where I listed responses to art, experiences of interpersonal relationships (love, sympathy, antipathy, suspicion, trust) and this is where i also put the experience of god. All invisible, all non-material, all behaviour and outlook-modifying experiences and all recognised as true. Is love untrue if you are not yourself in love right now? Is suffering not a moving experience if you are not moved by this or that particular suffering?
None of these are experienced scientifically, none of them are even remotely lived as scientific facts. Yet all societies through the ages lived with the recognistion of their truth.
We a huge number of varied (in eloquence, insight, copmplexity) reports of the lived experience of god. We have material evidence of the actions motivated by all those reportted and unreported experiences (the 2000 years of Christian civilisation in all its aspects). It would be idiotic of SOBish proportions to dismiss it all, all 2000 years of it, as nothing but a mistake made by millions of idiots or (worse because stupidly, unreflectively, hypochritically condescending) millions of naifs.

Yes, god is not scientifically true. (Nor is the experience of love or art or the mythopoetic aspects of our lives). But to appropriate truth exclusively for only facts that science can encompass is to throw overboard all the important truth by which we all - atheists inclided - live by.

This is not a proof of god, of course, but it is a rebuttal of the self-serving narrowing of what truth actually is in all of our lives.

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« Last Edit: Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:21am by Soren »

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