Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism a Religion?

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #570 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:17am There is a real tragic aspect to life which Christianity recognises but atheism is blind to. In a way, there are no jokes in Islam as Khomeini said, but at bottom, there are no jokes in atheism either. Nor tragedy.
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #571 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:09pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:58am:

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:19am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:17am:

Question: How do you validate the meaning of life through a materialist approach?

You register it through Bigpond Movies and pay a fee I think.

I know it's a joke, but it actually does have a strong element of truth in it.
A pure materialist approach cannot explain much beyond continual self-fulfilling moments.

I am willing to listen to arguments to the contrary.

No argument from me, except to say that atheism and materialism are entirely different concepts. They don't always go hand in hand.

Buddhism is generally atheistic, but the very antithesis of materialism. Religious Naturalism also falls into that category.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #572 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:10pm Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:17am: There is a real tragic aspect to life which Christianity recognises but atheism is blind to. In a way, there are no jokes in Islam as Khomeini said, but at bottom, there are no jokes in atheism either. Nor tragedy. Are there jokes in Christianity?
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #573 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:31pm

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:09pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:58am:

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:19am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 8:17am:

Question: How do you validate the meaning of life through a materialist approach?

You register it through Bigpond Movies and pay a fee I think.

I know it's a joke, but it actually does have a strong element of truth in it.
A pure materialist approach cannot explain much beyond continual self-fulfilling moments.

I am willing to listen to arguments to the contrary.

No argument from me, except to say that atheism and materialism are entirely different concepts. They don't always go hand in hand.

Buddhism is generally atheistic, but the very antithesis of materialism. Religious Naturalism also falls into that category.

The refutation of Christianity by many atheists involves a materialist approach. The simplest being reasoning that goes like this: "Where is God; where is this invisible man; I can't see him therefore he does not exist." Atheism and materialism go hand in hand most of the time.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #574 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:33pm

Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:17am:

There is a real tragic aspect to life which Christianity recognises but atheism is blind to. In a way, there are no jokes in Islam as Khomeini said, but at bottom, there are no jokes in atheism either. Nor tragedy.

Doesn't that stand to reason? Isn't it a bit like saying that the body of people who drink macchiatos have no system of morality as a consequence of their preference for coffee?

Atheism has no moral dimension per se, however Atheists may very well draw their own individual moral dimension from a set of standards/ beliefs that is distinct from "Atheism".

As I said earlier, Atheism is subtly different. It's fine to say that a Christian would follow Christianity or a Christian system of morality. An Atheist would not usually say that they follow Atheism. They might get some strange looks, but even stranger if they say that they follow an atheistic system of morality.

In fact some Atheists may very well follow a Christian culturally derived morality. It's a bit like the breakfast cereal that may contain traces of nuts.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #575 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:37pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:31pm:

The refutation of Christianity by many atheists involves a materialist approach. The simplest being reasoning that goes like this: "Where is God; where is this invisible man; I can't see him therefore he does not exist." Atheism and materialism go hand in hand most of the time.

In my experience, most Atheists are not vocal in that way. You probably just hear the loud abnoxious ones.

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Yadda

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #576 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 9:06pm

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:10pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:17am:

There is a real tragic aspect to life which Christianity recognises but atheism is blind to. In a way, there are no jokes in Islam as Khomeini said, but at bottom, there are no jokes in atheism either. Nor tragedy.

Are there jokes in Christianity?

Good question.

I don't know any 'jokes in Christianity', but i'm sure, i'm positive, that God has a sense of humour.

Men/women have a sense of humour.

And man is made in the image of God! Tongue

Then there is that very good Jewish joke, about Christianity;

Q.
"Why wasn't Jesus born in England ?"

A.
"The LORD looked, and looked, but he couldn't find three wise men and a virgin, in England."

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #577 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:45pm

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:31pm:

The refutation of Christianity by many atheists involves a materialist approach. The simplest being reasoning that goes like this: "Where is God; where is this invisible man; I can't see him therefore he does not exist." Atheism and materialism go hand in hand most of the time.

In my experience, most Atheists are not vocal in that way. You probably just hear the loud abnoxious ones.

I am not sure about that. The materialist approach (God can't be seen) appears to be the most common attempt at refutation.

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Soren

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #578 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:52pm

muso wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 3:33pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:17am:

There is a real tragic aspect to life which Christianity recognises but atheism is blind to. In a way, there are no jokes in Islam as Khomeini said, but at bottom, there are no jokes in atheism either. Nor tragedy.

Doesn't that stand to reason? Isn't it a bit like saying that the body of people who drink macchiatos have no system of morality as a consequence of their preference for coffee?

Atheism has no moral dimension per se, however Atheists may very well draw their own individual moral dimension from a set of standards/ beliefs that is distinct from "Atheism".

As I said earlier, Atheism is subtly different. It's fine to say that a Christian would follow Christianity or a Christian system of morality. An Atheist would not usually say that they follow Atheism. They might get some strange looks, but even stranger if they say that they follow an atheistic system of morality.

In fact some Atheists may very well follow a Christian culturally derived morality. It's a bit like the breakfast cereal that may contain traces of nuts.

You are skating over the point and I don't know whether it it is because you get it or because you don't. So here is what what I am saying:

There is a real, actually lived and actually shared tragic dimension to life. None of us lives up to our ideals. None of us is free from the haunting recognition that we have buggered up, many times, really badly. None of us is free from knowing that we have buggered up because of who we actually are, each of us individually, personally, morally.

Our daily failings to live up to our own moral and ideal expectations of who we would want to be or who we imagine ourselves to be is palpably true and known by every one of us. Christianity gets this.
Atheism does not. Atheism is blind to human experience, including the experience of atheists, when it comes to the palpable tragedy of human life. It is much more dogmatic and cruel in this regard - in ignoring significant human experience - than religion.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #579 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 6:16am

Yes, and to an extent I agree with you. Some new Atheists tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It tends to explain the inreased suicide levels of (young) atheists. I already said that Atheism in itself has no spiritual or human dimension. It doesn't even pretend to represent a way of life or a system of morality. Humanism goes part way there, and to some extent that is an -ism that can be followed, but not all atheists are humanists.

Atheism An Atheist doesn't have to preclude the spiritual dimension, but often does. I have no argument with that.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #580 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 7:53am

muso wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 6:16am:

Yes, and to an extent I agree with you. Some new Atheists tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It tends to explain the inreased suicide levels of (young) atheists. I already said that Atheism in itself has no spiritual or human dimension. It doesn't even pretend to represent a way of life or a system of morality. Humanism goes part way there, and to some extent that is an -ism that can be followed, but not all atheists are humanists.

Atheism An Atheist doesn't have to preclude the spiritual dimension, but often does. I have no argument with that.

Many new atheists (and a lot of old ones), when questioned, finally reveal they have an axe to grind over organised religion.

Their 'confessions' often betray their deep contempt for clerical arrogations and sins or their contempt for religious dogma (seen as pompous and imperious) - an insult to their intelligence. Those atheists, however, I would categorise as antitheists.

They are usually consumed by their contempt for religion to the point that they compromise their own (presumed superior) reasoning on the matters of faith, spirituality and 'the numinous', such that they have nothing useful to say about them at all and often, for that matter, cannot contribute positively to meaningful debate on the great Socratic question of 'How should we live'.

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Yadda

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #581 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 9:51am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Many new atheists (and a lot of old ones), when questioned, finally reveal they have an axe to grind over organised religion.

IMO, many atheists resent religion/Christianity because they [the atheists] resent just the reminder [from the mere presence] of those who are trying to [imperfectly] acknowledge their own [psychic] errors.

Atheists have not yet come to that [psychic] place, where they themselves [atheists] can recognise acknowledge their own faults, to themselves.

Because to acknowledge their faults and errors [to themselves], they would also have to concede that perhaps, just perhaps, others are [psychically, and on an 'evolutionary' level] 'ahead' of them [the atheists, WHO ARE THE REAL REALISTS].

And their vanity won't allow them to acknowledge, that those who have chosen another path, may be, in an 'evolutionary' sense, 'ahead' of them.

Human beings are [essentially] spiritual creatures/beings.

Most of us only see the 'physical', and therefore most of us are prepared to acknowledge only the physical [and as far as it goes, the 'intellectual'] aspect of our 'existence'.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #582 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 10:07am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 7:53am:

muso wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 6:16am:

Yes, and to an extent I agree with you. Some new Atheists tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It tends to explain the inreased suicide levels of (young) atheists. I already said that Atheism in itself has no spiritual or human dimension. It doesn't even pretend to represent a way of life or a system of morality. Humanism goes part way there, and to some extent that is an -ism that can be followed, but not all atheists are humanists.

Atheism An Atheist doesn't have to preclude the spiritual dimension, but often does. I have no argument with that.

Many new atheists (and a lot of old ones), when questioned, finally reveal they have an axe to grind over organised religion.

Their 'confessions' often betray their deep contempt for clerical arrogations and sins or their contempt for religious dogma (seen as pompous and imperious) - an insult to their intelligence. Those atheists, however, I would categorise as antitheists.

They are usually consumed by their contempt for religion to the point that they compromise their own (presumed superior) reasoning on the matters of faith, spirituality and 'the numinous', such that they have nothing useful to say about them at all and often, for that matter, cannot contribute positively to meaningful debate on the great Socratic question of 'How should we live'.

Yeah, that's the other angle in an attempt to refute. The material approach can often play second fiddle to resentment against authority figures.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #583 - Apr 19^th, 2013 at 7:46am

Yadda wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 9:51am:

IMO, many atheists resent religion/Christianity because they [the atheists] resent just the reminder [from the mere presence] of those who are trying to [imperfectly] acknowledge their own [psychic] errors.

Atheists have not yet come to that [psychic] place, where they themselves [atheists] can recognise acknowledge their own faults, to themselves.

Because to acknowledge their faults and errors [to themselves], they would also have to concede that perhaps, just perhaps, others are [psychically, and on an 'evolutionary' level] 'ahead' of them [the atheists, WHO ARE THE REAL REALISTS].

And their vanity won't allow them to acknowledge, that those who have chosen another path, may be, in an 'evolutionary' sense, 'ahead' of them.

The irony here being it appears you don't recognise your own vanity and arrogance in your post...

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Yadda

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #584 - Apr 19^th, 2013 at 11:47am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2013 at 7:46am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 9:51am:

IMO, many atheists resent religion/Christianity because they [the atheists] resent just the reminder [from the mere presence] of those who are trying to [imperfectly] acknowledge their own [psychic] errors.

Atheists have not yet come to that [psychic] place, where they themselves [atheists] can recognise acknowledge their own faults, to themselves.

Because to acknowledge their faults and errors [to themselves], they would also have to concede that perhaps, just perhaps, others are [psychically, and on an 'evolutionary' level] 'ahead' of them [the atheists, WHO ARE THE REAL REALISTS].

And their vanity won't allow them to acknowledge, that those who have chosen another path, may be, in an 'evolutionary' sense, 'ahead' of them.

The irony here being it appears you don't recognise your own vanity and arrogance in your post...

I can't help but be a vain and arrogant person.

I know that i'm a flawed human being.

That is the journey.

But isn't it fun! Roll Eyes

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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