Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism a Religion?

damien

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #585 - Apr 19^th, 2013 at 3:55pm

Soren wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:57pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 7:17am:

I came to disbelieve the central mythos of Christianity (virgin birth, resurrection, miracles et al), the same way I came to disbelieve the idea of ghosts and goblins... And, by all accounts, I'm in esteemed company...

This is itself an example of condescention to a kind of invented one dimensional character, to use your formulation.
It is pretty shallow to maintain that 2000 of Christian civilisation is based on the same kind of childish pre-pubescent fears and mythology and imaginative complexity as ghosts and hobgoblins - even if there were/are Christians who do believe in ghosts an hobgoblins. This is like saying that because, say, SOB is a narrow-minded, unthinking atheists who has never in 50 years progressed beyond 'atheism is a lack of belief' no matter what the conversational context, therefor atheism is based on this monomaniac stupidity in the hearts and minds of every atheist.

I think Christianity is true in the sense that the emotional response of its devotees is true. It is not a scientific or fact-focused response but nonetheless true for all that. Who cares about the biochemical explanation of the human response to myth and poetry? Nobody. Because it is not a lived experience.

Good to hang onto that big bang theory, isn't it. How big of a bang do we need as we've had some big ones in past years!!

Ha, ha!! Cheesy

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #586 - Apr 19^th, 2013 at 4:49pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 19^th, 2013 at 11:47am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 19^th, 2013 at 7:46am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 9:51am:

IMO, many atheists resent religion/Christianity because they [the atheists] resent just the reminder [from the mere presence] of those who are trying to [imperfectly] acknowledge their own [psychic] errors.

Atheists have not yet come to that [psychic] place, where they themselves [atheists] can recognise acknowledge their own faults, to themselves.

Because to acknowledge their faults and errors [to themselves], they would also have to concede that perhaps, just perhaps, others are [psychically, and on an 'evolutionary' level] 'ahead' of them [the atheists, WHO ARE THE REAL REALISTS].

And their vanity won't allow them to acknowledge, that those who have chosen another path, may be, in an 'evolutionary' sense, 'ahead' of them.

The irony here being it appears you don't recognise your own vanity and arrogance in your post...

I can't help but be a vain and arrogant person.

I know that i'm a flawed human being.

That is the journey.

But isn't it fun! Roll Eyes

And the joke goes on... (None so blind!!)

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Sappho

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #587 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 11:40am

Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:52pm:

There is a real, actually lived and actually shared tragic dimension to life. None of us lives up to our ideals. None of us is free from the haunting recognition that we have buggered up, many times, really badly. None of us is free from knowing that we have buggered up because of who we actually are, each of us individually, personally, morally.

Our daily failings to live up to our own moral and ideal expectations of who we would want to be or who we imagine ourselves to be is palpably true and known by every one of us. Christianity gets this.
Atheism does not. Atheism is blind to human experience, including the experience of atheists, when it comes to the palpable tragedy of human life. It is much more dogmatic and cruel in this regard - in ignoring significant human experience - than religion.

A person does not loose their sense of empathy or morality just because they opt out of God belief... nor should people expect them to... or worse... give them reason to as you would do here Soren.

We are human together and humanity is a social and therefore moral experience. I am not freed from my bugger ups because I am Atheist, rather, I am chained to them because I am a moral entity who perceives consequences.

Morality does not belong to gods, it belongs to humanity irrespective of your theistic or atheistic inclinations... It is expected that we act with morality. Perhaps, there are those Atheists who think that they can reduce their moral obligations by removing a belief in god... but they are wrong.

It should be expected that Atheists have a deeper appreciation of morality and the principles which underscore them, because they must think upon it rather than merely doing what God says because God says.

This deeper appreciation of morality and its principles is what gives deep meaning to the Atheist experience and validates our experiences.

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damien Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 639 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #588 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 11:49am The "BIG BANG THEORY". Well we have had some big bangs of late - and nothing happened.
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Sappho Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1406 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #589 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 11:56am damien wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 11:49am: The "BIG BANG THEORY". Well we have had some big bangs of late - and nothing happened. I don't understand... what do you mean?
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Yadda

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #590 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 2:22pm

Sappho wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 11:40am:

Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2013 at 10:52pm:

There is a real, actually lived and actually shared tragic dimension to life. None of us lives up to our ideals. None of us is free from the haunting recognition that we have buggered up, many times, really badly. None of us is free from knowing that we have buggered up because of who we actually are, each of us individually, personally, morally.

Our daily failings to live up to our own moral and ideal expectations of who we would want to be or who we imagine ourselves to be is palpably true and known by every one of us. Christianity gets this.
Atheism does not. Atheism is blind to human experience, including the experience of atheists, when it comes to the palpable tragedy of human life. It is much more dogmatic and cruel in this regard - in ignoring significant human experience - than religion.

A person does not loose their sense of empathy or morality just because they opt out of God belief... nor should people expect them to... or worse... give them reason to as you would do here Soren.

We are human together and humanity is a social and therefore moral experience. I am not freed from my bugger ups because I am Atheist, rather, I am chained to them because I am a moral entity who perceives consequences.

But Sappho,

If we are merely evolved creatures, aren't we then, just evolved, animals [and, be 'bound' to demonstrate only the same existential needs as all other animals] ?

And if we are evolved animals, surely the imperative we would naturally express is in seeking the interest of the animal [food, shelter, sex, comfort, etc].

And if we are, just, merely, evolved animals, where is the existential need [i.e. through evolution] for us to embrace a moral imperative ?

I am not saying that animals do not show compassion for other creatures, in fact i think that there are many examples of wild creatures doing just that.

But where is the passion 'to know' [themselves] in wild creatures - that is clearly present in human beings ?i Quote:

Morality does not belong to gods, it belongs to humanity irrespective of your theistic or atheistic inclinations... It is expected that we act with morality. Perhaps, there are those Atheists who think that they can reduce their moral obligations by removing a belief in god... but they are wrong.

It should be expected that Atheists have a deeper appreciation of morality and the principles which underscore them, because they must think upon it rather than merely doing what God says because God says.

This deeper appreciation of morality and its principles is what gives deep meaning to the Atheist experience and validates our experiences.

Why should atheistic, evolved, 'wild' creatures [i.e. human beings] have learnt to respect and embrace a 'morality' ?

Was it embraced because there was/would be some existential advantage in doing so ?

And if the answer is, Yes.....

Then where is the morality ?

i.e.
Why do we so plainly demonstrate, in our interactions among ourselves [personal, communal, national, international levels] that we are grasping, selfish, hedonistic, greedy, ruthless, violent, AND IMMORAL creatures ?

+++

And Sappho, if there is this 'great moral sense' being felt and being expressed, in the atheistic human creature, then why have many of our cultural 'shamans' of old described our base nature thus;

"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."

Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian

???

Thucydides got it right imo.

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Yadda

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #591 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 2:36pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 2:22pm:

Why should atheistic, evolved, 'wild' creatures [i.e. human beings] have learnt to respect and embrace a 'morality' ?

Was it embraced because there was/would be some existential advantage in doing so ?

And if the answer is, Yes.....

Then where is the morality ?

i.e.
Why do we so plainly demonstrate, in our interactions among ourselves [personal, communal, national, international levels] that we are grasping, selfish, hedonistic, greedy, ruthless, violent, AND IMMORAL creatures ?

Or is it your opinion Sappho, as an atheist, that this part of our nature [i.e. the selfish, hedonistic, greedy, etc] is essentially due to the influence of religions, upon man's psyche ?

And, that such behaviour [in man] does not reflect, mankind's basic moral nature ? Tongue

hehe

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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damien Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 639 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #592 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 4:20pm I've never had an answer from an atheist who believes that apes are our brothers as to why we still see apes in either zoos or the wild. How come they haven't evolved. And why hasn't man evolved to the extent that we still have diseases and body parts that wear out.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism a Religion? Reply #593 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:03pm There is no morality without religion. There is no example of an atheist society that has never had religion developing any moral code. None. Atheist morality is religious morality with god/s left out. You could not come up with a moral code out of atheism without having the inheritance of religion.
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #594 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:04pm

damien wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 4:20pm:

I've never had an answer from an atheist who believes that apes are our brothers as to why we still see apes in either zoos or the wild. How come they haven't evolved. And why hasn't man evolved to the extent that we still have diseases and body parts that wear out.

Probably because, like the lingula, they are well adapted to their environmental niche. I don't think you understand the principles of evolution. The lingula is a fairly primitive life form (a brachiopod), but it's extremely successful. I don't know if you've been keeping up with things, but the apes are not doing too well in the wild these days. Their environment is changing rapidly, and the dwindling resources are taking their toll. That in itself is an evolutionary process.

Now - Are you claiming that the hypothesis that God created arthritis and Ebola is much more convincing? To what purpose? - and why so imperfect?

Also, why do you specifically want to ask an Atheist? Are you saying that only atheists understand evolution? Is a Christian who accepts evolutionary processes, still a Christian?

- and before you call me the "a" word, believe me, I'm just as critical of anybody else who utters inanities - and many of the resident self styled atheists are as guilty of that as you are.

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« Last Edit: Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:45pm by muso »

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #595 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:21pm

Soren wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

There is no morality without religion. There is no example of an atheist society that has never had religion developing any moral code. None. Atheist morality is religious morality with god/s left out. You could not come up with a moral code out of atheism without having the inheritance of religion.

These guys must have been atheists then:
http://gracegems.org/D/evil_popes.htm

Quote:

Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503), called the most corrupt of the Renaissance Popes. He was licentious, avaricious, and depraved! He bought the Papacy; made many new cardinals, for money; had a number of illegitimate children, whom he openly acknowledged and appointed to high church office while they were yet children — who, with himself, murdered cardinals and others who stood in their way. Had for a mistress, a sister of a Cardinal.

Still, it's nice to look back on our religious cultural heritage. No?

I'd like to know how your hypothesis would work with theologians who happen to be atheists. Do they lose their sense of morality? - or does a knowledge of religion without belief suffice.

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« Last Edit: Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:43pm by muso »

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #596 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:52pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 2:36pm:

Or is it your opinion Sappho, as an atheist, that this part of our nature [i.e. the selfish, hedonistic, greedy, etc] is essentially due to the influence of religions, upon man's psyche ?

I don't know about Sappho, but I'm a great believer in the principles of neuroplasticity. If you keep repeating that sombody is a wretched sinner, sooner or later, they'll get the hint and live up to the expectations of their religious peers.

My own observation is that people are capable of good and bad, sometimes real evil, and it's independent of their religion. Altruism exists in all societies.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario. If an infidel like me were to be injured in a car accident in (say) Riyadh, do you think that passers by would be more or less inclined to assist, than an injured person of another culture (say an Aborigine) in Sydney?

What about in largely atheistic societies such as parts of Scandinavia?

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Soren

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #597 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 7:05pm

muso wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:21pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

There is no morality without religion. There is no example of an atheist society that has never had religion developing any moral code. None. Atheist morality is religious morality with god/s left out. You could not come up with a moral code out of atheism without having the inheritance of religion.

These guys must have been atheists then:
http://gracegems.org/D/evil_popes.htm

Quote:

Pope Alexander VI (1492-1503), called the most corrupt of the Renaissance Popes. He was licentious, avaricious, and depraved! He bought the Papacy; made many new cardinals, for money; had a number of illegitimate children, whom he openly acknowledged and appointed to high church office while they were yet children — who, with himself, murdered cardinals and others who stood in their way. Had for a mistress, a sister of a Cardinal.

Still, it's nice to look back on our religious cultural heritage. No?

I'd like to know how your hypothesis would work with theologians who happen to be atheists. Do they lose their sense of morality? - or does a knowledge of religion without belief suffice.

Get this (I know it's hard) - there has never been an atheist society that developed a moral code. Because there has never been an atheist society.
Atheist today are coming into the moral inheritance of their religious forebears. And they embrace the religious morality without the clericalism.
But as every schoolboy know, clericalism ain't the same as religion.

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Soren

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #598 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 7:06pm

muso wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:21pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

There is no morality without religion. There is no example of an atheist society that has never had religion developing any moral code. None. Atheist morality is religious morality with god/s left out. You could not come up with a moral code out of atheism without having the inheritance of religion.

These guys must have been atheists then:
http://gracegems.org/D/evil_popes.htm

Not living up to a moral code is not the same as there being no moral code.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism a Religion?
Reply #599 - Apr 27^th, 2013 at 7:08pm

Soren wrote on Apr 27^th, 2013 at 6:03pm:

There is no morality without religion. There is no example of an atheist society that has never had religion developing any moral code. None. Atheist morality is religious morality with god/s left out. You could not come up with a moral code out of atheism without having the inheritance of religion.

True, insofar as there has never been an historically significant society without religion... It is just a plain fact that human society is built on its ancient religious beliefs - with all its gods...

There can be no concept of atheism without theism. But that doesn't mean god's existence is therefore true.

Belief in the Christian/Islam/etc mythos will one day pass away (it has already begun)... But I have serious doubts that it will be replaced by nothing - no metaphysical beliefs at all (hence latter-day non-theistic spirituality/ mysticism).

I have come to the belief that (in general) humanity cannot tolerate living with the unknowable that is not (in some way) part of a conscious, teleological (divine) purpose. The fear of death will always be with us... And we will always be prepared to 'touch wood'... to 'not step on the cracks'... to do whatever it takes to ward off the threat of the ultimate existential pain...

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