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The Soren Challenge (Read 45090 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #45 - Jun 2nd, 2011 at 9:13pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 8:33pm:
Can you do the 'AGW is not real" scenarios as well?



It's already been done.

2) What are the likely costs, benefits & losses involved, IF humanity were to proceed on the scenario that Climate Change is NOT a reality and it turned out that Climate Change scenario was -
a) Correct!

Then we will unnecessarily have exacerbated a Depression, into a severe Depression.

However, it probably should have read -
Then we will still have a Depression,  due to the other major factors also in the system -
1) Demographics - The Baby Boomer Bust.
2) Peak Energy.
3) Massive Global Debt overload.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #46 - Jun 2nd, 2011 at 9:19pm
 
I post this here, because it's relevant!

perceptions_now wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 9:18pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 6:50pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 2:23pm:
I post this here, because it's relevant!

1) What are the likely costs, benefits & losses involved, IF humanity were to proceed on MY scenario that Climate Change is a reality and it turned out that my Climate Change scenario was -
a) Correct!


We, the current batch of humans, would have done whatever we could to prevent a catastrophe and we would have done so on the user pays principle. At least, we would not have completely postponed any costs, exclusively to future generations, so that we could continue to pander to our own immediate whims!

There is no denying that the costs of taking action now, would be significant and when combined with what is already happening relevant to -
1) Demographics - The Baby Boomer Bust.
2) Peak Energy.
3) Massive Global Debt overload.
those costs would most likely make the upcoming Depression, very long & even more painfull.
In relative GDP terms, if all countries chipped in now, then the cost could perhaps be at least 5% of GDP.

However, an overrider is that it must be an all in approach, if some of the larger Economies such as the USA, China, India, Europe and even Australia do not play ball fairly, then whatever is done is likely not to bear fruit and failure will have severe costs!  

b) Incorrect!

Then we will unnecessarily have exacerbated a Depression, into a severe Depression.

2) What are the likely costs, benefits & losses involved, IF humanity were to proceed on the scenario that Climate Change is NOT a reality and it turned out that Climate Change scenario was -
a) Correct!

Then we will unnecessarily have exacerbated a Depression, into a severe Depression.

b) Incorrect!

IF action does not start fairly soon on both Climate Change & Peak Energy, then the results would be -
* The entire Global Economy may vanish!
* A catastrophe, in human loss of life, on a Biblical scale!

The basic difference between the two approaches, is that if we accept there may be a Threat, then we will have simply followed good business practices and acted on the SWOT approach, which is simply a strategic planning method used to evaluate the Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats involved in any project, Private business venture and Governments, at all levels.

We will have detected possible Threats, such as Climate Change & Peak Energy and done our Due Diligence, to see that future generations had a reasonable chance of living a life worth living.

In other words, we (collectively) will simply have done what good businesses, governments & individuals should do, every day and what most actually do.

We have assessed the Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities & Threats, several significant Threats have appeared and we have treated them according to their priority. These threats, whilst some may say they are not overwhelming, nor perhaps even likely, they are of such a size, if they become reality, that we CAN NOT IGNORE THEM.

So, we do what good business pratice dictates, we look at insurance to cover the RISK of SYSTEMIC MELTDOWN, by getting everyone to pitch in a bit every year,  as preventative measures and we take all possible mitigation measures, to try to prevent the systemic meltdown of the Business/Government/Global Economy.    

The likely outcomes of two scenario's is the same, we simply make a bad scenario worse.

If we assume that Climate Change is real, it turns out to be real, we take proper Business Risk mitgation and everyone joins in, then humanity & the Economy, still has hope.

If we assume that Climate Change is NOT real,  but it turns out to be real, we continue with Business as usual and do nothing, then humanity & the Economy, losses all hope and we really are doomed.


And, here was me, thinking that some of those on the Conservative Right, who seem to think that Business is their domain, may have commented, on what are standard business practices?

But, it's just further proof that the myth of Economic infallibility that many Conservatives raise, is just that, it's a myth!

If anyone ran a business, like some of you want to approach Climate Change & Peak Energy, then you would most likely be in the 50% of businesses that fail, in the first 12 months!  


No comment from the Conservative "think" tankers - Maqqa, Cods, LW & associates.

I'll take that as confirmation that the Conservative/Liberal Economic managers myth, is dead & buried!!!
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Soren
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #47 - Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:15pm
 
The question then is about the risk assessment - how sure can we be/are we that AGW is a reality and if it is a reality, what is it's magnitude, longitude and impact.


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« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2011 at 9:04am by Soren »  
 
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Emma
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #48 - Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:54pm
 
Magnitude = Global
Lomgitude??
Definitely - UNKNOWN!! Grin Cheesy
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Soren
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #49 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 9:07am
 
Emma wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:54pm:
Magnitude = Global
Longitude??
Definitely - UNKNOWN!! Grin Cheesy



Longitude=length of time, arschloch (or trou du cul, if you prefer, arsehole).


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perceptions_now
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #50 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 12:40pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:15pm:
The question then is about the risk assessment - how sure can we be/are we that AGW is a reality and if it is a reality, what is it's magnitude, longitude and impact.




Soren,
You just don't get it and you never will, not matter what information is provided, nor what events take place,  you just can not accept anything outside your mindset!

That said, you ask, "how can we be sure".
Now that sounds much like what business ask for, "we are looking for certainty".

Well, let me tell you & business, THERE ARE FEW CERTAINTIES IN LIFE, ONLY DEATH & TAXATION COME TO MIND.

But, there is another "Law of Nature", which is also a certainty and that is, "exponential growth, in any finite environment, is impossible".

The truth is, as I have said previously, it really doesn't make any difference whether Climate Change is caused by us humans, although I am of the opinion that it has been materially affected by human input and the majority of world scientists agree.

The truth is, that the magnitude of what is happening is enormous. In fact, the combination of events, including -
1) Demographics.
2) Peak Energy (primarily Oil).
3) Climate Change.
4) Massive Global Debt overload.
are actually a once in history confluence of events, which will never happen again!
At least, not for many millions of years!

The truth is, we are nearing the end of the natural "mild climate cycle",  from here on the natural climate would start to warm too much, to accommodate (feed & water) 7 Billion people, let alone any more. But, those extra GHG's we are pumping into the environment is most likely speeding the process and the result will see a shorter gap to reaching the top of this warming period.

But, whether we blame ourselves or not, we are now racing against the clock, to find ways of living with a much different world environment, whilst coping with a massive Decline in available Energy Supplies, particularly in the liquids for transport area, but also accross all sectors.

This is no Right Vs Left Political game, at the very least this event will be a long drawn out Economic turnturn of massive proportions, but it may well be a struggle for the very survival of the species?

I have previously raised the anaolgy of Wile E Coyote chasing the run runner towards a cliff, the road runner knows what's coming and he can stop faster than Wile E Coyote can.

The road runner hits his brakes, followed quickly by Wile E Coyote, but because of the small delay in applying the brakes and the longer braking time, Wile E Coyote is left "hanging ten" on the edge of the cliff.

The road runner reaches out to grab Wile E and save him, but then thinks, if he saves the Coyote, then Wile E will just revert to his old habit of trying to kill the road runner.

So, the road runner gives good old Wile E Coyote the slightest of nudges, which is just enough to make Wile E over balance and send
him over the edge of the cliff, to his death below!


...

The moral of the story being, it's those small nudges, you gotta watch out for!


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Cliff Richard
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #51 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 1:26pm
 
perceptions now post generator

make a big long copy paste

throw in some graphs

a few million exclamation marks

i bet fewer people read his posts than they read yaddas posts
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #52 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 1:35pm
 
Cliff Richard wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 1:26pm:
perceptions now post generator

make a big long copy paste

throw in some graphs

a few million exclamation marks

i bet fewer people read his posts than they read yaddas posts


You did!

So, is the information correct?

If not, why?
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Cliff Richard
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #53 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 1:41pm
 
i didnt read it no

but i have read them in the past and they all conform to a distinct and characteristic pattern that is supremely annoying
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #54 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 2:06pm
 
Cliff Richard wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 1:41pm:
i didnt read it no

but i have read them in the past and they all conform to a distinct and characteristic pattern that is supremely annoying


Cliff,
You must have read it, to have responded to me saying, you didn't read it.

Anyhow, believe it or not, it's up to you! 

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Soren
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #55 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 3:04pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 12:40pm:
Soren wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:15pm:
The question then is about the risk assessment - how sure can we be/are we that AGW is a reality and if it is a reality, what is it's magnitude, longitude and impact.




Soren,
You just don't get it and you never will, not matter what information is provided, nor what events take place,  you just can not accept anything outside your mindset!




Funny you should say that.


ALso,
Quote:
Climate Change is caused by us humans, although I am of the opinion that it has been materially affected by human input and the majority of world scientists agree.


caused and affected - vastly different things.

Quote:
1) Demographics.
2) Peak Energy (primarily Oil).
3) Climate Change.
4) Massive Global Debt overload.


No. 4 is far more pressing than 2. 1 is pressing only in some places and then in different directions (either too many young people or too many old people or too many boys etc). 1, 2 and 4 are the only ones on that list that are exclusively in our control.

3 is the least of our problems on your list, partly because it is very gradual and because it is  largely out of our control. 


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muso
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #56 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 3:32pm
 
It's perhaps beyond our control in that it will be difficult to control energy types and usage throughout the world.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #57 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 3:49pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 3:04pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 12:40pm:
Soren wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:15pm:
The question then is about the risk assessment - how sure can we be/are we that AGW is a reality and if it is a reality, what is it's magnitude, longitude and impact.




Soren,
You just don't get it and you never will, not matter what information is provided, nor what events take place,  you just can not accept anything outside your mindset!




Funny you should say that.


ALso,
Quote:
Climate Change is
caused
by us humans, although I am of the opinion that it has been materially
affected
by human input and the majority of world scientists agree.


caused and affected - vastly different things.


Quote:
1) Demographics.
2) Peak Energy (primarily Oil).
3) Climate Change.
4) Massive Global Debt overload.


No. 4 is far more pressing than 2. 1 is pressing only in some places and then in different directions (either too many young people or too many old people or too many boys etc). 1, 2 and 4 are the only ones on that list that are exclusively in our control.

3 is the least of our problems on your list, partly because it is very gradual and because it is  largely out of our control.  





As has been said, Climate Change has been ongoing for a long period of time.

But our little 2 cents worth of recent input, is what is causing us (humans) a greater headache.

So, I view our input as a re-inforcing cause & affect, we input more into the Environment and that affects the changes a little more than would have been the case, without our 2 cents worth. 
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #58 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 4:03pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 3:04pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 12:40pm:
Soren wrote on Jun 2nd, 2011 at 11:15pm:
The question then is about the risk assessment - how sure can we be/are we that AGW is a reality and if it is a reality, what is it's magnitude, longitude and impact.




Soren,
You just don't get it and you never will, not matter what information is provided, nor what events take place,  you just can not accept anything outside your mindset!




Funny you should say that.


ALso,
Quote:
Climate Change is caused by us humans, although I am of the opinion that it has been materially affected by human input and the majority of world scientists agree.


caused and affected - vastly different things.

Quote:
1) Demographics.
2) Peak Energy (primarily Oil).
3) Climate Change.
4) Massive Global Debt overload.


No. 4 is far more pressing than 2. 1 is pressing only in some places and then in different directions (either too many young people or too many old people or too many boys etc). 1, 2 and 4 are the only ones on that list that are exclusively in our control.

3 is the least of our problems on your list, partly because it is very gradual and because it is  largely out of our control.  





Actually 4 is largely caused by 1 & 2 initially, then most governments made it worse, by trying the short term Keynesian solution on what are long term problems and that just made 4 worse, in the longer term.

And 3 is likely to be the greater of those four problems, because of the very perception that it is a far off problem, when the reality is that the leading edges are already here.

Will it be out of our control, I hope not, but the tasks involved are so massive, only history will know the final outcome.
 
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Emma
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Re: The Soren Challenge
Reply #59 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 10:59pm
 
Magnitude = Global
Lomgitude??
Definitely - UNKNOWN!!   ( My Actual POST at 11.54pm)



Posted by: Soren Posted on: Today at 9:07am
jalane33 wrote on Yesterday at 11:54pm:

Magnitude = Global
Longitude??
Definitely - UNKNOWN!!  


Longitude=length of time, arschloch (or trou du cul, if you prefer, arsehole).


Ah a true Deceiver!! Angry
Liar  and arsehole be you. You have edited my post !. In your Post above, you made an edit, and put it down as my post.  Then you call me names -  you know - arschloch? .
Can't even admit to poor spelling, poor wee dear.   I OBJECT to your stupid games .

Do NOT EDIT my posts.  Angry AngryThat is poor form old chap, Don't YOU KNOW!!?? Cool Huh Roll Eyes
It must be against the rules,  - as if that means anything to you.  Perhaps I should return the favor? Yeah?  we could all go around editing other posters comments -- could be BAD!

I ask you to apologise to me, here on this thread, and promise all of us you WONT do it again.
Poor show Soren. Very poor indeed.
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