Australian Politics Forum - Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.

gizmo_2655

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Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #30 - Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:58pm

Verge wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:48pm:

Grey wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:34pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 2:50pm:

During year end close or full year budget times - I work well beyond 14 hour days - at times as high as 20 hours at peak times.

Do the job you sign up for, or don't do it?

Don't hear me complain.

Your kids must feel really loved.

Do you know his companys position on family?

Heck, I get a visit a day from my wife and daughter at work if its a 6 hour day or a 15 hour one I work.

I think it depends on what the job is, and what method of payment you're on...
Salaried staff tend to work longer hours than wage staff...

Salary sort of means you get paid $X per month for so much production...and you stay until the works done..

Wage is more you are paid for so many hours, and after those hours, you leave..

The longest shift I've ever done was 27 hours guarding a fatal accident site...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

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Verge

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Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #31 - Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:00pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:58pm:

Verge wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:48pm:

Grey wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:34pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 2:50pm:

During year end close or full year budget times - I work well beyond 14 hour days - at times as high as 20 hours at peak times.

Do the job you sign up for, or don't do it?

Don't hear me complain.

Your kids must feel really loved.

Do you know his companys position on family?

Heck, I get a visit a day from my wife and daughter at work if its a 6 hour day or a 15 hour one I work.

I think it depends on what the job is, and what method of payment you're on...
Salaried staff tend to work longer hours than wage staff...

Salary sort of means you get paid $X per month for so much production...and you stay until the works done..

Wage is more you are paid for so many hours, and after those hours, you leave..

The longest shift I've ever done was 27 hours guarding a fatal accident site...

Probably the best definition Ive seen of salary vs wages.

27 hours, damn! I guess you have to do what you have to do.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59054 Here Gender:	Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days. Reply #32 - Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:06pm You guys really want these fella's driving thru your neighbourhood in the late afternoon or early evening when you children are in the streets when they have been behind the wheel for 14 hours. I have to say that I do not want this company playing Russian roulette with children’s lives.
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Luke Fowler

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Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #33 - Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:06pm

Verge wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:43pm:

Luke Fowler wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:22pm:

Verge wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:07pm:

Luke Fowler wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 2:55pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 2:50pm:

During year end close or full year budget times - I work well beyond 14 hour days - at times as high as 20 hours at peak times.

Do the job you sign up for, or don't do it?

Don't hear me complain.

That's because you obviously don't have the talent or the bargaining position, or both, to negotiate better conditions for yourself.

You should join a union or something.

You are obviously a little raw to these boards.

People in triple figure middle management dont worry about Unions. If you think Andre needs a Union, Im gonna have to stop you now before I die from laughter.

Ive never had a problem with 14 hour days, some much longer than that.

You bog down when you have to, and in my experience you get rewarded down the track.

And none of my "overtime" was ever on the hourly pay clock either.

Actually, I am aware of Andre and his triple figure middle management position.

Previous conversations have uncovered that Andre and I earn approximately the same wage. If I was forced to work a 14+ hour day however, I would be out the door in a heartbeat. I love my job, but I also have a life to live outside of it.

I am lucky that my employers are well aware of this. In, turn, I will send a member of my team home if they are staying at work too late.

As a result, we are a happy, productive team that constantly produces results and that has a life outside of work. I feel that the quality of work produced after you have been there for hours on end drops dramatically anyway.

If that makes me less worthy than the schmo who is stuck in an office away from family and friends, so be it.

But hey, you can feel free to feel somehow superior because you work longer hours than I do. I'll think of you when I'm out at a show with my wife or drinking with mates.

There is an expectation where I am that you get in and do the work when it needs to be done, and you arent near the place when its quiet.

Its the joys of the corporate world, and if you have to do the 12, 14, and even 16 hour day then you do it in order to meet the deadlines.

If your answer to meeting a deadline is 'I'm going home', then good luck to you, but you wouldnt last 2 minutes in my office.

Thats where the give and take comes in. You give me the time when we need it, and I give them the time when they want it.

I dont know what kind of an arts job you have that lets you head off without a sniff of overtime, but its obviously not one that involves strict deadlines.

Good luck to you, but you situation is not what I would call a normal one.

We have deadlines. Deadlines are met.

I note with interest the claim that my job allows me to walk out the door "without a sniff of overtime". Where was that said?

I said that 14 hour plus days were unacceptable. An hour here and there is not an issue. Most people with their heads down don't even notice an extra hour pass.

However, if you are working 14 hour days, then what kind of quality of life is that giving you? As I said, this whole "that's just how it is" line is quite bemusing to me. Seriously, call me ignorant but I can't see it for the kind of salary we are talking about.

Maybe it is an old school way of looking at things. I know a lot of my friends who entered the workforce at the same time as me aren't pulling shifts like the ones you describe and they don't all work in the Arts (some are in much more prosaic fields). Maybe we just demand more from our employers these days. Maybe it's because our employers found us rather than us looking for them. Who can tell?

I'm not going to doubt that you do these kind of shifts and that this is what is expected in your organisation, but I wouldn't do it, simple as that. I would prefer to be paid less and get by with a few less nights eating out than work ridiculous hours like this. Not everybody's life centres solely around the office, no matter how much they like their job.

As I said in another thread, Mrs Fowler and I are looking to have children soon and I don't think I would be any kind of father if I was stuck in an office 14+ hours a day.

Luckily for me, that won't be the case.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59054 Here Gender:	Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days. Reply #34 - Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:14pm If people consistantly need to work 14 hr days it is because the staff levels are not right.
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Luke Fowler Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 320 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days. Reply #35 - Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:15pm Dnarever wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:14pm: If people consistantly need to work 14 hr days it is because the staff levels are not right. I was just about to say that. Haven't these people heard of temps?
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Equitist

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Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #36 - Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:27pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:06pm:

You guys really want these fella's driving thru your neighbourhood in the late afternoon or early evening when you children are in the streets when they have been behind the wheel for 14 hours.

I have to say that I do not want this company playing Russian roulette with children’s lives.

Good point - all the more pertinent since I think I suffered my first ever microsleep behind the wheel last night - YIKES!!!

Over the past 15 years, I have made an annual average of well over a dozen 'day trips' between the cusp of the Central Coast and Hunter and Sydney - and where possible, I prefer to avoid freeway traffic by making the return trip at night...

In all that time, I have never been so tired that I could have dozed off at the wheel - until last night...

I've got Duracell-genes - i.e. I don't need as much sleep as most and I very rarely bed down before midnight...

In hindsight, it was a mistake to make a day trip to go to a party (no drugs or alcohol consumed) and attempt to drive home so soon after my little trip to hospital - cos my kids and me (and possibly others) could have been road statistics today!

I've heard it said that most late night road accidents occur within a short distance from home - we were about 20 mins drive away from home when I was overwhelmed with tiredness...after not much more than an hour of driving...

Scary stuff - never to be repeated!!!

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days. Reply #37 - Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:37pm So many people don't realise that the only real thing we get to spend is time.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #38 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 5:35am

Verge wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:00pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:58pm:

Verge wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:48pm:

Grey wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 10:34pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 2:50pm:

During year end close or full year budget times - I work well beyond 14 hour days - at times as high as 20 hours at peak times.

Do the job you sign up for, or don't do it?

Don't hear me complain.

Your kids must feel really loved.

Do you know his companys position on family?

Heck, I get a visit a day from my wife and daughter at work if its a 6 hour day or a 15 hour one I work.

I think it depends on what the job is, and what method of payment you're on...
Salaried staff tend to work longer hours than wage staff...

Salary sort of means you get paid $X per month for so much production...and you stay until the works done..

Wage is more you are paid for so many hours, and after those hours, you leave..

The longest shift I've ever done was 27 hours guarding a fatal accident site...

Probably the best definition Ive seen of salary vs wages.

27 hours, damn! I guess you have to do what you have to do.

Yeah, it was only supposed to be 12 hours, but the boss couldn't find anyone to take over...

Not that I minded all that much.....I was on $28/hour...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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longweekend58

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Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #39 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 4:27pm

Luke Fowler wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:15pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:14pm:

If people consistantly need to work 14 hr days it is because the staff levels are not right.

I was just about to say that.

Haven't these people heard of temps?

like temp truck drivers or temp pilots or temp miners way out int he bush? it isnt always like that in the REAL world of income producing business.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Luke Fowler

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Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #40 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 7:41pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2011 at 4:27pm:

Luke Fowler wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:15pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 5^th, 2011 at 11:14pm:

If people consistantly need to work 14 hr days it is because the staff levels are not right.

I was just about to say that.

Haven't these people heard of temps?

like temp truck drivers or temp pilots or temp miners way out int he bush? it isnt always like that in the REAL world of income producing business.

So you think it's a great idea to have truck drivers on the road for those lengths of time.

Too bad when they go off the road or wipe out some family because they are so tired and whatever substance they are taking to stay awake wears off. As long as the company meets its bottom line, eh?

Further, as far as I am aware, it's not hard to find a temp accountant. They aren't all that rare. Our finance department has them in all the time during our busiest periods.

It's not rocket science staffing an office to meet demand. I think some people have just come to expect that they have to work ridiculous hours because they fear they might be shown the door if they don't.

If you have what your employer needs, if you are talented and have the appropriate skills/education/experience and you are able to negotiate well, you shouldn't have to fear anything.

Colleagues of mine who live in the "real" world (as opposed to the unreal world where these ethereal hands are typing on a keyboard made of ether and fairies are holding up my keyboard so I can see it) say the same thing. What you scoff at is merely an organisation that treats its staff well.

I know, it's terrible. I should leave and go work for a bank.

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The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad. Salvador Dali

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djrbfm Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 352	Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days. Reply #41 - Jun 6^th, 2011 at 10:42pm hi, when i was working full time, it was for myself, and i easily clocked up 18 hours/day. but i loved my work. helped me to retire early with good money. i can, however, understand the pain if one doesn't relate well to one's job. the pain would be enormous. j.
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imcrookonit

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Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #42 - Jun 7^th, 2011 at 7:54am

Hours of work

From 1 January 2010 maximum weekly hours form part of the National Employment Standards (NES) and replace the maximum ordinary hours of work entitlements under the Australian Fair Pay and Conditions Standard (the Standard).

The NES sets out the maximum weekly hours for employees and also the circumstances in which an employee may refuse a request or requirement to work additional hours if the hours are unreasonable.
Maximum weekly hours. Wink

An employer must not request or require an employee to work more than the following hours of work in a week, unless the additional hours are reasonable: Wink

* for a full-time employee - 38 hours; or
* for an employee other than a full-time employee - the lesser of 38 hours or the employee's ordinary hours of work in a week.

When calculating the number of hours an employee has worked per week, any authorised leave, such as personal leave, should be included.
Reasonable additional hours

An employee may refuse to work additional hours, if they are unreasonable. For additional hours to be 'reasonable', all relevant factors must be considered. Wink

These factors include:

* any risk to the employee's health and safety
* the employee's personal circumstances, including family responsibilities
* the needs of the workplace or enterprise
* whether the employee is entitled to receive overtime payments, penalty rates or other compensation for, or a level of remuneration, that reflects an expectation of, working additional hours
* any notice given by the employer to work the additional hours
* any notice given by the employee that they intend to refuse to work the additional hours
* the usual patterns of work in the industry
* the nature of the employee's role, and the employee's level of responsibility
* whether the additional hours are in accordance with agreed averaging arrangements
* any other relevant matter.

Averaging weekly hours

An award or agreement (including an award or agreement based transitional instrument) may include provisions for the averaging of hours of work over a specified period, which is greater than a week.

Similarly, employers and award/agreement free employees may agree in writing to an arrangement to average their ordinary hours of work. The maximum averaging period for award/agreement free employees is 26 weeks.

The average hours worked over the period must not exceed the employee’s maximum weekly hours (i.e. 38 hours per week for a full time employee).

There is no requirement for an employer and employee to enter into an averaging arrangement. An employer cannot force or try to force an employee to make or not make an averaging arrangement.

Penalties of up to $6,600 for an individual and $33,000 for a corporation can apply.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days. Reply #43 - Jun 7^th, 2011 at 10:25am Imcrook - I bet over the last 5 years I have worked infinitely more hours than you have. Dedication and work ethic mate. That is why some succeed and some fail.
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imcrookonit

Ex Member

Re: Sacked For Refusing To Work 14 Hour Days.
Reply #44 - Jun 7^th, 2011 at 10:38am

The number of working hours you do means the more or less pay you get. But don't think for a moment because you do more hours, your job is any more secure. I have worked both short and long hours for different company's. With the norm being an 8 hour day. Also I have worked 12 hour days 7 days a week. Yes more money, but more job security - no.

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