Australian Politics Forum - Death Sentence in Tenn.

Karnal

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #105 - Jun 19^th, 2011 at 3:03pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 2:47pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said.

why can you not just READ the Bible for a change instead of making a mis-interpretation of everything?

I am reading the Bible - every time Yadda does Quotes.

I notice this has piqued a nerve with "Christians", but it's not slanderous or misinterpreting - read the Bible, folks! Why do you think Paul wanted to get rid of circumcision? He wanted to turn a Jewish cult into a mainstream Roman religion - and he succeeded.

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longweekend58

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #106 - Jun 19^th, 2011 at 3:22pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 3:03pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 2:47pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said.

why can you not just READ the Bible for a change instead of making a mis-interpretation of everything?

I am reading the Bible - every time Yadda does Quotes.

I notice this has piqued a nerve with "Christians", but it's not slanderous or misinterpreting - read the Bible, folks! Why do you think Paul wanted to get rid of circumcision? He wanted to turn a Jewish cult into a mainstream Roman religion - and he succeeded.

Thats YOUR interpretation and a rather flawed one especially since the next 300 years saw christians executed by the Romans for their faith. the 'circumcision' issue is clearly explained in the bible that you dont read or understand. It was instituted by God originally and then WITHDRAWN for reasons you will need to find from the bible but is clearly explained.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Karnal

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #107 - Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:09pm

Instituted by God? What are you - a Muslim?

We've all read the Bible, Longweekend - some more than others. I'm not making an interpretation. Paul is explicit about expanding a small Jewish cult into a church. It was his project, and he was clear and open about it.

What is contentious - and I've agreed that it is - is that followers of an Essene teacher called Yeheshua became, over a few hundred years, pagan worshippers of a god called Jesus the Christ: the Virgin birth, the Trinity; the whole evolution into the universal signifier (God) that a humble Jew became.

Personally, I think Jesus was a spiritual teacher. This is just one of my views. There is also substantial evidence to suggest that Jesus didn't exist at all - that his story was put together from pagan sources such as Dionysis, Isis and Prometheus. The parallels are compelling.

To me, it makes no difference. Millions of Hindus worshop gods like Shiva and Krishna with no evidence of these gods walking the earth. To me, it comes down to how you apply your faith, not the truth of your faith itself.

I don't expect Christians to believe this. Christians are largely obsessed with a reified ideal of truth. Personally, I think truth is what you do with it, but I don't expect anyone to care what I think.

I just hope that you practice what you preach, as this is the most you can ask of anyone. There are many faiths and ways in this world. Pick one, play it well, and respect the choices of others. Everyone is just as in the dark as we are, and doing what they can with what they have.

I really don't think God cares what brand of God you follow.

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Cliff Richard Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 558	Re: Death Sentence in Tenn. Reply #108 - Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:10pm stop making stuff up karnal
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95304 Gender:	Re: Death Sentence in Tenn. Reply #109 - Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:13pm Cliff Richard wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:10pm: stop making stuff up karnal Quite right.
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Yadda

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #110 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 8:02am

Karnal wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:09pm:

Instituted by God? What are you - a Muslim?

We've all read the Bible, Longweekend - some more than others. I'm not making an interpretation. Paul is explicit about expanding a small Jewish cult into a church. It was his project, and he was clear and open about it.

What is contentious - and I've agreed that it is - is that followers of an Essene teacher called Yeheshua became, over a few hundred years, pagan worshippers of a god called Jesus the Christ: the Virgin birth, the Trinity; the whole evolution into the universal signifier (God) that a humble Jew became.

Personally, I think Jesus was a spiritual teacher. This is just one of my views. There is also substantial evidence to suggest that Jesus didn't exist at all - that his story was put together from pagan sources such as Dionysis, Isis and Prometheus. The parallels are compelling.

To me, it makes no difference. Millions of Hindus worshop gods like Shiva and Krishna with no evidence of these gods walking the earth. To me, it comes down to how you apply your faith, not the truth of your faith itself.

I don't expect Christians to believe this. Christians are largely obsessed with a reified ideal of truth. Personally, I think truth is what you do with it, but I don't expect anyone to care what I think.

I just hope that you practice what you preach, as this is the most you can ask of anyone. There are many faiths and ways in this world. Pick one, play it well, and respect the choices of others. Everyone is just as in the dark as we are, and doing what they can with what they have.

I really don't think God cares what brand of God you follow.

The fact is that there are many, many people alive today [including ex-moslems], who know that Jesus is real.

EXAMPLE;
A UK woman, Yasmin, says that a spirit being, Jesus Christ, manifest himself, to her [in a 'vision'].
I acknowledge, that Yasmin's claim, is not a 'proof' of her experience.
But does your 'non-experience' in any way dis-prove Yasmin's experience?
[i.e. because YOU have not shared such an experience ??? LOL ]

"Yasmin, who was raised in the North of England, has been forced out of her town...Brought up in a Muslim family, she converted after having a vision of Jesus...
She fled to another part of Britain, but the attacks soon started again as locals found out about her."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece

It is very threatening for some, to have their perception of reality challenged.

And those who challenge our [or, the] common perception of reality, often experience the ridicule and open hostility of the 'common' man.

John 15:17-19
Galatians 4:29

Nevertheless, there are many people alive today who claim to have had spiritual experiences, which they claim, have convinced them of another reality beyond this one [which we all commonly 'experience'].

If you are an atheist in this age, i would be asking myself why [i have not had any spiritual experience].

Oh yes, that right, because i only believe in what i can see, and what i have experienced myself.

And that that, is the extent of reality, and i am certain of it.
/sarc off

Romans 8:9
....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Karnal,

IMO, you, and many atheists like you, do not have the humility to imagine that reality, is NOT bounded by your own senses and comprehension.

It is impossible for the carnal mind of a man, to have knowledge ['proof'] of the spiritual.

But hey, go your own way.

Have a nice life.

Walk your path.

Believe what you will.

And we all do. Wink

Google;

modern muslims visions jesus

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #111 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 8:20am

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2011 at 11:38pm:

Because a guy called Paul wanted to create a pagan-style religion that could compete in the Roman market. They set up Jesus as a god and started worshipping him instead of listening to anything he may or may not have said.

Moslems and atheists display very similar 'symptoms'/responses, when confronting Christianity [i.e. responses to the 'Christianity' which is 'revealed' within scripture].

Is that just a coincidence ???

I don't believe that it is just a coincidence.

IMO, both moslems and atheists exhibit a resistance to, and a hatred of, the spirit of God.

i.e.
The God of Israel.

Again, is that a coincidence ???

I don't believe that it is.

Google;

muslims hate Paul because Paul clearly taught Christ's divinity

Paul's testimony...

Acts 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow [Paul], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,
8 Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him.
9 And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were so.
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Paul's testimony...

Acts 26:9
I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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longweekend58

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #112 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 10:29am

Karnal wrote on Jun 19^th, 2011 at 10:09pm:

Instituted by God? What are you - a Muslim?

We've all read the Bible, Longweekend - some more than others. I'm not making an interpretation. Paul is explicit about expanding a small Jewish cult into a church. It was his project, and he was clear and open about it.

What is contentious - and I've agreed that it is - is that followers of an Essene teacher called Yeheshua became, over a few hundred years, pagan worshippers of a god called Jesus the Christ: the Virgin birth, the Trinity; the whole evolution into the universal signifier (God) that a humble Jew became.

Personally, I think Jesus was a spiritual teacher. This is just one of my views. There is also substantial evidence to suggest that Jesus didn't exist at all - that his story was put together from pagan sources such as Dionysis, Isis and Prometheus. The parallels are compelling.

To me, it makes no difference. Millions of Hindus worshop gods like Shiva and Krishna with no evidence of these gods walking the earth. To me, it comes down to how you apply your faith, not the truth of your faith itself.

I don't expect Christians to believe this. Christians are largely obsessed with a reified ideal of truth. Personally, I think truth is what you do with it, but I don't expect anyone to care what I think.

I just hope that you practice what you preach, as this is the most you can ask of anyone. There are many faiths and ways in this world. Pick one, play it well, and respect the choices of others. Everyone is just as in the dark as we are, and doing what they can with what they have.

I really don't think God cares what brand of God you follow.

you sound daft saying that. no credible historian even disputes the existence of Christ. there is far more evidence for his existence than there is for a whol host of historical figures we accept without question.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Karnal

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #113 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 10:30am

Yadda wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 8:02am:

Romans 8:9
....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

True. However, you don't need to believe anything to experience the spirit of Christ. This is universal, and open to everyone. If it wasn't, Paul would not have experienced what he did on the road to Damascus.

I'm sure Jesus is real, but there are many kinds of reality in this universe. Like our human understanding of "God", our understanding of "reality" is mutable. Figures like Jesus have left us with some very useful signposts. Our beliefs, convictions and actions are able to turn lead into gold, or gold into lead.

Believe me, I have not produced much gold in my life, but I know it exists. I think we are all capable of finding it, but we need to find it in our own way and in our own time.

It's a very human trait to tell everyone that our own path is the best. Personally, I would prefer people followed their own paths and let us all know when they get to their destination.

Are we there yet?

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Karnal

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #114 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 12:07pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 10:29am:

you sound daft saying that. no credible historian even disputes the existence of Christ. there is far more evidence for his existence than there is for a whol host of historical figures we accept without question.

You're right, Longweekend. There is no evidence to say that Jesus did NOT exist. But equally, very few historians would claim that there is any evidence to suggest that he did - beyond the testimonies of the gospels. And who wrote them? No one knows.

Historically speaking, this is a problem. To be historically valid, written or archaological evidence must be sourced. This is is the problem 19th century Christians had in defending Christianity from the onlaught of the Enlightenment, particularly after the publishing of Darwin's On the Origin of the Species.

Christian rationalists like C.S Lewis put the story of Jesus down as a myth (with the proviso that it actually happened). For Christian existentialists like Kierkergaard, the very crux of Christianity is that it is not rational, but a leap -

Of faith.

Personally, I never questioned the existence of Jesus until I read Freke & Gandy's the Jesus Mysteries. The parallels between the pagan myths of Osiris, Dionysis and Mithras and the story of Jesus are astounding. Events such as being born of a virgin mother, being born in a cave or cowshed on December 25, priests or "wise men" being present at his birth, riding triumphantly into town on a donkey and having palm leaves placed before him, turning water into wine at a marriage ceremony, dying and being resurrected at Easter, and acting as a human sacfifice to absolve the sins of humanity - all are in the myths of the above pagan gods.

In fact, early church fathers such as Tertullian (160-220 AD) were so worried about these parallels that they proposed the "doctrine of diabolical mimicry": Satan placed these details within pagan myths to confuse future Christians!

But to be honest, I really don't know. Theologians have argued against Freke and Gandy's thesis, among them this:

http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/archive/thinking/387a/

I'm with Kierkergaard on this one. Fact is fact, faith is faith, and truth is only important if you're trying to convince someone of something.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I think you should practice what you believe, do it as well as you can, and what you can't do yourself, leave all in the hands of G_d.

Yes, friends, I'm just as in the dark as Yadda or Longweekend or the frien who goes by the name of Cliff Richard. Whomever He or She is, all I can say is this:

God is great!

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« Last Edit: Jun 20^th, 2011 at 12:15pm by Karnal »

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #115 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 12:13pm

Quote:

you sound daft saying that. no credible historian even disputes the existence of Christ. there is far more evidence for his existence than there is for a whol host of historical figures we accept without question.

I agree longy, the existence of Christ isn't seriously disputed, there's not any evidence that says he 'didn't' live..

Some of the things attributed to him can, and have, been though...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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longweekend58

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #116 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 2:24pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 12:07pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 10:29am:

you sound daft saying that. no credible historian even disputes the existence of Christ. there is far more evidence for his existence than there is for a whol host of historical figures we accept without question.

You're right, Longweekend. There is no evidence to say that Jesus did NOT exist. But equally, very few historians would claim that there is any evidence to suggest that he did - beyond the testimonies of the gospels. And who wrote them? No one knows.

Historically speaking, this is a problem. To be historically valid, written or archaological evidence must be sourced. This is is the problem 19th century Christians had in defending Christianity from the onlaught of the Enlightenment, particularly after the publishing of Darwin's On the Origin of the Species.

Christian rationalists like C.S Lewis put the story of Jesus down as a myth (with the proviso that it actually happened). For Christian existentialists like Kierkergaard, the very crux of Christianity is that it is not rational, but a leap -

Of faith.

Personally, I never questioned the existence of Jesus until I read Freke & Gandy's the Jesus Mysteries. The parallels between the pagan myths of Osiris, Dionysis and Mithras and the story of Jesus are astounding. Events such as being born of a virgin mother, being born in a cave or cowshed on December 25, priests or "wise men" being present at his birth, riding triumphantly into town on a donkey and having palm leaves placed before him, turning water into wine at a marriage ceremony, dying and being resurrected at Easter, and acting as a human sacfifice to absolve the sins of humanity - all are in the myths of the above pagan gods.

In fact, early church fathers such as Tertullian (160-220 AD) were so worried about these parallels that they proposed the "doctrine of diabolical mimicry": Satan placed these details within pagan myths to confuse future Christians!

But to be honest, I really don't know. Theologians have argued against Freke and Gandy's thesis, among them this:

http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/archive/thinking/387a/

I'm with Kierkergaard on this one. Fact is fact, faith is faith, and truth is only important if you're trying to convince someone of something.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I think you should practice what you believe, do it as well as you can, and what you can't do yourself, leave all in the hands of G_d.

Yes, friends, I'm just as in the dark as Yadda or Longweekend or the frien who goes by the name of Cliff Richard. Whomever He or She is, all I can say is this:

God is great!

I have seem several 'impossible' miracles take place in response to prayer to the God you seem to question. What is harder to do: write som mythical stories in the distant past or miraculously heal the sick from terminal illnesses and severe disabilitiies. When God does the latter I have no reason (or right) to question the Bible that He wrote. SOmetimes it is MORE than faith.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Karnal

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #117 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 4:00pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 2:24pm:

I have seem several 'impossible' miracles take place in response to prayer to the God you seem to question.

Everything should be questioned. This is how we get better at things. If I was a faith healer, I'd be questioning why some leave their crutches in the church, praising Jesus, and others go home disappointed.

Was it Jesus? Was it them? Was it the faith-healer's over-enthusiastic thrust that nearly took out an eye?

Sometimes faith can move mountains. At other times, who knows?

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longweekend58

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #118 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 5:42pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 4:00pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 2:24pm:

I have seem several 'impossible' miracles take place in response to prayer to the God you seem to question.

Everything should be questioned. This is how we get better at things. If I was a faith healer, I'd be questioning why some leave their crutches in the church, praising Jesus, and others go home disappointed.

Was it Jesus? Was it them? Was it the faith-healer's over-enthusiastic thrust that nearly took out an eye?

Sometimes faith can move mountains. At other times, who knows?

if you prayed for someone to be healed from a terminal illness and 1 out of ten was healed, why would you still question God??? What you call 'faith' is nothing of the sort.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Cliff Richard

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Re: Death Sentence in Tenn.
Reply #119 - Jun 20^th, 2011 at 6:39pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 5:42pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 4:00pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jun 20^th, 2011 at 2:24pm:

I have seem several 'impossible' miracles take place in response to prayer to the God you seem to question.

Everything should be questioned. This is how we get better at things. If I was a faith healer, I'd be questioning why some leave their crutches in the church, praising Jesus, and others go home disappointed.

Was it Jesus? Was it them? Was it the faith-healer's over-enthusiastic thrust that nearly took out an eye?

Sometimes faith can move mountains. At other times, who knows?

if you prayed for someone to be healed from a terminal illness and 1 out of ten was healed, why would you still question God??? What you call 'faith' is nothing of the sort.

hahahahaha

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