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The tobacco industry and plain packaging (Read 6574 times)
The_Barnacle
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #30 - Jul 25th, 2011 at 10:41pm
 
revheadross wrote on Jul 25th, 2011 at 9:02pm:
 If it is indicated that there is a "safe" level , clearly by extension , there is an unsafe level .


Absolutely right, and the same goes for most things in life, whether it is alcohol, junk food, water, exercise etc. There are safe and unsafe levels.
The difference with smoking is that there is NO SAFE LEVEL !

That is the reason that it is being targeted. There is no safe level of smoking. As an adult smoker you will still be able to smoke as much as you like of whatever brand you like. The ONLY difference will be that Big Tobacco will not be able to promote it's deadly product by using the packet you carry around.
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revheadross
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #31 - Jul 26th, 2011 at 8:40am
 
Despite your intolerance of other peoples choices in life , they will continue to do what they want .   Explain to me (in your opinion ) how exactly you think a packet displaying an horific health warning pic. , & which has to be requested from behind a closed door , will promote an impulsive sale .   A person seeing an olive green FPV Ford will still think (if so inclined ) 'I like the sound of that" , and buy one . it can also kill him if abused .This packaging change push is a furphy , and will eventually come to its predictable demise .  it would have as much effect as the proposed , equally flawed carbon tax push .  ie.   Cost an astronomical amount & achieve NOTHING .  If big brother was serious &/or had the guts , they would ban the product .     THEY WON'T.      The tobacco product will be promoted no more or less  if a packet carried around in a pocket is marked or unmarked , clearly evidenced by the failure of the current pictures etc. to effect this .     I'm glad however that grudging concession has been made that there are many other things out there which ARE doing harm at varying levels .The curiosity is why are these issues being denied / glossed over/ ignored here ? The saviours of the world need to address ALL issues .   It's a big job speaking for everyone .
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The_Barnacle
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #32 - Jul 26th, 2011 at 8:25pm
 
revheadross wrote on Jul 26th, 2011 at 8:40am:
  Explain to me (in your opinion ) how exactly you think a packet displaying an horific health warning pic. , & which has to be requested from behind a closed door , will promote an impulsive sale .  


Ask yourself this revhead. If plain packaging will have no effect then why is Big Tobacco spending millions of dollars opposing it?

Logo's and branding are very powerful marketing tools. The act of people carrying around a cigarette packet and displaying the logos and branding is a form of marketing.

Those who wish to smoke can still do so. The product remains the same only the packaging will change.

An olive green FPV Ford can kill if abused, no doubt about that. (that is why we have lots of restrictions on the use of cars - drivers licences, speed limits etc). The difference is that cigarettes can kill even if not abused. There is no safe level of smoking.
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revheadross
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #33 - Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:29am
 
Ask yourself this O Yeah.....If I put a quote up , why don't I respond to it in my post ? Have another look at it , reflect for a moment , let it sink in , then respond meaningfully , instead of a cut & paste type response ! I look forward to a SPECIFIC response . OF COURSE logos are marketing tools , after market SHARE . The market is established and to date has complied with draconian packaging changes asked of it . If people wish to smoke , THEY WILL. if not , they won't . Tobacco marketing is no different to any other , shooting for the max.  % of an established market niche .That is what makes this fanatical push for label change so stupid . IT WILL CHANGE NOTHING !! Also to talk about restrictions on use of products is irrelevant , you must realise . We are surely talking here about purchase FOR use of the product .    I hope I ,at least ,have shed some light on what you did not understand .
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #34 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 1:18pm
 
It is imaginative at best to state that it is propoganda that the Aust Govt. has been "unable to prove that plain packaging will work " . By "work" I assume it is meant as not attracting new smokers to the arena .  Because with regard to current smokers , it will achieve nothing .   So to justify this claim which the author wants us to accept as truth , where is the proof . To lend this claim any veracity , there needs to be real world results , over a period where this has been done & documented , not unsubstantiated claims by some pseudo academic . I don't believe that it has ever been established that plain packaging will achieve anything positive over the current system of warnings .   Where is any REAL proof that it has ?
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« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2011 at 2:19pm by revheadross »  

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adelcrow
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #35 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 6:07pm
 
Its all about stopping the kids from getting addicted to nicotine, kids are the new customers of the tobacco giants when the current stock of addicts die off prematurely.
Big Tobacco has been threatening the worlds govts for years over plain packaging so we know on that basis the tobacco giants have done the research that tells them plain packaging will dramatically cut the rate of new young addicts.
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revheadross
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #36 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 9:43pm
 
Of course it's a good thing that kids don't get addicted to anything , nobody in their right mind would disagree , & NOBODY IS . Kids are the new POTENTIAL  customers of every company on earth . They will only become customers if they seek out the product .(Tobacco NOT a brand .) If advertising is a prime motivator to this end , I ask you to explain to me specifically how this will be acheived by packaging which already displays prominent , horrific health warnings & is hidden away behind closed doors in outlets . Sweeping assertions about "threats" and "research " (with no proof ) and therefore, eronous deductions don't cut it .   As with all such issues , education is the key , but alas , it is not a perfect world .   You can't legislate against stupidity .
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Equitist
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #37 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 9:49pm
 



What!? There's no proof, anywhere in the world!? Funny that, eh!?

There will never be proof unless a Govt is brave enough to prove it.

I, for one, am happy for Australia to be the guinea pig in this experiment!
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revheadross
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #38 - Jul 28th, 2011 at 10:02pm
 
Well , it certainly seems that way . ( No proof ) Don't cry foul when the veracity of a statement is questioned .  What would a govt. possibly be afraid of ? Proof of claims is the basis of adult debate !      Sounds like govt. & posters alike feel free to make misleading / incorrect statements , and when challenged have nothing .  I also DO NOT view my country as a  'Guinea pig "   They tend to not come out of exploratory experiments well .
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revheadross
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #39 - Jul 29th, 2011 at 8:57am
 
We still all wait to see the proof & backup for the specious arguments put forward by the pro plain packaging brigade . Hard facts are the only thing which will give credence to unsupported claims . Now they're having a shot at the govt. for not being "brave ".   They (the govt. ) are the ones ostensively fronting this cavalier push . It's  unfortunately predictable behaviour to look for a scapegoat &/or  turn on allies when caught out or feeling threatened . C'mon guys , otherwise this forum will degenerate further to "My dad can piss further than your dad " type childish debate .
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The_Barnacle
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #40 - Jul 29th, 2011 at 10:54pm
 
revheadross wrote on Jul 27th, 2011 at 8:29am:
Tobacco marketing is no different to any other , shooting for the max.  % of an established market niche .That is what makes this fanatical push for label change so stupid . IT WILL CHANGE NOTHING !!


This claim is at best naive. Using this logic the use of full billboard advertising and TV adverts would be acceptable as it is an "established niche market".

When children see a role model smoking they associate the logo and branding on the pack with being "cool". The health warnings on the pack have made a positive effect on disassociating the logo and branding with any positive role models. Plain packaging is simply taking it one step further. This is no "pie in the sky" theory, this is how marketing works.

Revhead, judging by your previous post where you bizarrely compare it to the Carbon tax, I can only assume that your opposition to plain packaging is purely politically motivated. If so then perhaps I should remind you that Tony Abbott is also a supporter of plain packaging of cigarettes.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/health/abbott-to-back-plain-packet-cigarettes/story-fn59nokw-1226066391156   
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #41 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 9:20am
 
Oh Yeah ,  Talk about naivete , where have you been ? You should know about the industry accepted multi media advertising ban on these products .Happened years ago , but the market & product is still there . I will respond to your curious mention of political motivation , merely to say that the stance of Tony Abbott on anything is of monumental insignificance to me .  Speaking of monumental insignificance , so was the logo on the pack when I experimented with durries as a schoolboy . They were Garrick . Nothing "cool" there . No positive role model either , just good ol' peer pressure .     Here are the FACTUAL results thus far ...........Horrific health warnings did not work .......Non display @ outlets did not work .........Bans in public places (even outside at some ) did not work ........Multi media advertising bans did not work ............Bans on in car smoking with children ineffectual ....etc.  etc.   No "pie in the sky "theory here .This is real life , like it or not .    And still , this ill fated , fanatical push for plain packaging is touted as the magic fix .??          To do the same thing time after time & expect a different outcome is a notable definition of insanity .   Or is it the "give 'em an inch , they'll take a mile " scenario ?    also , when pushing for change , like politicians , we all have to be seen to be relying on factual (proven ) argument , no matter how noble a saviours cause may seem .
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« Last Edit: Jul 30th, 2011 at 9:52am by revheadross »  

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The_Barnacle
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #42 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 9:54am
 
revheadross wrote on Jul 30th, 2011 at 9:20am:
Here are the FACTUAL results thus far ...........Horrific health warnings did not work .......Non display @ outlets did not work .........Bans in public places (even outside at some ) did not work ........Multi media advertising bans did not work ............Bans on in car smoking with children ineffectual ....etc.  etc.  


Absolutely wrong I am afraid.
In the 1960's over 50% of men smoked. Since the 1970's, when many of the campaigns you mentioned were introduced, smoking has dropped to a current level of less than 20%. If plain packaging can help reduce that level further then it will have succeeded.

To add a little context to your absurd claims that the anti smoking campaign hasn't worked you only need to look at the smoking rates in countries which don't have our stringent regulations on cigarette marketing. Cambodia 80% of men smoke, In China 67% of men smoke. in Japan 51% of men smoke.

http://www.wpro.who.int/media_centre/fact_sheets/fs_20020528.htm
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #43 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 10:26am
 
I note your unsubstantiated statement regarding % of smoking . Am I to assume you mean in Oz?  Where are these figures plucked from? It is "IF "this insanely expensive & unproven proposed plan will acheive anything  , that is the issue . IT WON'T.   Also to compare apples with apples on this matter , you obviously have to input factors such as socio/economic modifiers , cultural differences  and a myriad of factors . Let's stick to something which is relevant & we know .  It is totally out of context to draw comparison with a totally different situation .   If the real intent is to not attract kids to smoking this plain packaging furphy is a total non event . As i've said before the only REAL thing which I believe will acheive this is EDUCATION on the matter . This , in the main should be parental , but alas , most parents are too busy in the quest for the almighty dollar to bother with these basic issues for which they signed up when they fertillised the seed .
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The_Barnacle
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Re: The tobacco industry and plain packaging
Reply #44 - Jul 30th, 2011 at 10:44am
 
revheadross wrote on Jul 30th, 2011 at 10:26am:
I note your unsubstantiated statement regarding % of smoking . Am I to assume you mean in Oz?  


Yes I mean Australia. I got the figures from here

http://www.quit.org.au/article.asp?ContentID=7240

But this is an issue which doesn't need statistics. Anyone over 40 years old knows that the number of smokers has dropped vastly since the 1970s.

Quote:
Australian adult smoking rates are at an all-time low of around 17 per cent, down from 34 per cent in 1980, making our success in tobacco reform the envy of the world.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/australian-smoking-rates-are-down-to-an-all-time-low-so-who-is-still-lighting-up-20110130-1a96j.html#ixzz1TXpxxdYG

Clearly the campaign against smoking has been a spectacular success in Australia and the new plan packaging laws will build on that success

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