Australian Politics Forum - In defence of Islam

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: In defence of Islam Reply #105 - Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:27pm Les, if you are so sure of yourself, perhaps you can tell everyone what the death penalty is for apostasy under Islam. I suggest you start by looking up what Islam considers apostasy to be, as you seem a bit confused.
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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #106 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 8:46am

Lestat wrote on Jul 12^th, 2011 at 10:03am:

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2011 at 7:16pm:

Can you clarify? How do you reconcile this with, for example, the death penalty for apostasy? Is it because people get a choice between death and doing what the Muslims tell them to do?

.....And whats there to clarify.

Tell me, who in Australia has ever been forced to practise Islam.

Do you have any examples.

Who in Australia has ever received the death penalty for 'apostasy'..as you put it.

Plenty of people, and in Australia.

Lestat,

LIVING WITHIN A COUNTRY LIKE AUSTRALIA, WHICH MOSLEMS CHOOSE TO DO....

Once we reach the age of majority [i.e. adulthood], in a society like Australia, shouldn't we be allowed to make [life] decisions for ourselves ?

Yet many moslem parents, and many members of the moslem community, will try to intimidate, and will sometimes persecute, and will sometimes MURDER, the children of moslems [who have reached majority].

Because they, as adults, have chosen, in an open society, to discard ISLAM as a life philosophy.

Isn't this [moslem violence, in Western nations, against ex-moslems] a direct attempt to force people [in countries like Australia, non-moslem countries] to practice ISLAM ???

And isn't ISLAM directly responsible for this moslem violence, in a country like Australia ???

Why not ???

Google;

australia muslim honour killings

Google;

uk muslim honour killings

Google;

uk ex muslim persecution violence

n.b.
The term 'honour killing' is a misnomer.

That term, has been adopted within the Western mainstream media, imo, to avoid directly associating the murder of moslem apostates, with ISLAM, by NOT directly calling these people [the victims of moslem violence, in Western nations],

"a person murdered as a moslem apostate"

.

+++

The Hadith,
"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Ultimately, you [good moslems] are going to get, exactly what you give Lestat.

Suck it up Lestat.

Ultimately, you are, what you choose.

You choose ISLAM.

You will have it, for all of eternity.

ISLAM = = submission, bondage, SLAVERY.

+++

Yadda said.....

LIVING WITHIN A COUNTRY LIKE AUSTRALIA, WHICH MOSLEMS CHOOSE TO DO....

Isaiah 26:10
Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lestat

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #107 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 9:50am

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

They are also to do with apostasy. The fact that Islam requires a religious state may give it national security implications in extreme cases, but this does not change the fact that Islam imposes the death penalty for apostasy.

For the upteenth time, no Freediver, they are to do with treason. Many scholars have clarified apostasy laws, and said the same. Yet we are to believe that you know better then them. Righteo.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

Maybe, but they do not punish apostasy with death. Can you see the difference?

No, their is no difference, because in Islam the apostasy laws ARE to do with treason.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. If your not going to accept our answers Freediver, then really, why do you bother asking.

And you wonder why we don't take you seriously.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

Yet another weak attempt at diversion. This thread is about Islam, not Australian law.

Actually its not a diversion at all. Actually it is you who is diverting.

You say your opposed to Islam in Australia, and one of the reasons you trumpet is the apostasy laws. Yet you cannot name one example where muslims in Australia, have executed a killing due to apostasy.

You full of nothing but hot air.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

If I did, wouldn;t you just complain that it was not a proper Islamic state so it does not count anyway?

No...I would highlight that it is such a small issue anyway that it is irrelevant.

It is the equivelant of rejecting Christianity in Australia because of abortion clinic bombings!

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

I bring it up because it is part of Islam, which is what we are discussing.

The death penalty for treason is a part of Islam, as it is a part of many countries laws.

What you are discussing isn't a part of Islam, except in your twisted hate filled mind.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

I have made it very clear what my problem with Islam is. You are trying very deperately to change the topic to anything but Islam.

Yes you have, it has more to do with bigotry then anything else. You say you have a problem with any idealogy that infringes on 'personal freedoms'...yet seems you are to thick to realise that all laws, in some way...infringe on personal freedoms. That is the point of having laws.

I'm sure that there are plenty of Australians out there who smoke (or would like to) marijuana...aren't there 'personal freedoms' being infringed upon?

Oh...I get it...its only when Islam infringes on 'personal freedoms' which you have a problem with. Its ok for any other idealogy or set of laws to do so...but just not Islam.

Like I said...bigotry freediver.....

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

You are confusing the right to have an opinion with the right to promote evil ideologies without criticism.

But your opinion is an evil ideology (bigotry), and no one is talking about the right for you to criticize.

'Evil idealogy' is rather subjective....isn't it. As I said, I and many others would see your ideology as 'evil'. But you still have the right to express your opinions...are you not.

Just not enforce it, like western armies are in muslims lands enforcing their evil idealogies....

As for criticism....criticize all you like, no one takes you seriously or pays any attention.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

Abu and Malik said it is true.

Really....care to provide a quote?

Its not the first time that you have lied, claiming that Abu has said things that he never said. And every time you are asked to provide evidence....you mysteriously disapear.

I suspect this instance is no different....

Besides, last I checked neither Abu or Malik are scholars, or experts in shariah law. I'll take the ruling of the scholars thanks...

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

So far you cannot bring yourself to deny that islam imposes death for apostasy, only to try to change the subject.

Really.... [/quote]

lol...are you really this thick...or just pretending. I've answered you rather clearly. In Islam, the apostacy law relates to treason....nearly all the reputable scholars in Islam have said so.

I've told you this a number of times, Abu has told you this (even though you lie and say otherwise)...yet still your thick head cannot or does not want to accept this.

Like I said, why ask us if you will not accept out answer. You ask questions, wanting to hear what your bigotted minds wants to hear.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

Then you misunderstand what I am saying. I suggest you stick to what I actually say, not what you imagine my 'real intentions' are.

I understand exactly what you are saying....fortunately for us muslims, you lack the courage to act on your convictions.

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Lestat

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #108 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 9:52am

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:27pm:

Les, if you are so sure of yourself, perhaps you can tell everyone what the death penalty is for apostasy under Islam. I suggest you start by looking up what Islam considers apostasy to be, as you seem a bit confused.

lol...listen to yourself. Your losing the plot...your actually asking me a question, in which you answer in the same very question your asking.

'Can tell everyone what the death penalty is for apostasy under Islam.'

lol...what the death penalty is for apostasy under Islam. hehe....lets see if your small ignorant mind can see what the problem with your question is.

I await with baited breath....

If your interested (which I suspect you are not) I suggest you do some reading.

http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.com/

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« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2011 at 10:00am by Lestat »

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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #109 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 10:02am

Lestat wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

They are also to do with apostasy. The fact that Islam requires a religious state may give it national security implications in extreme cases, but this does not change the fact that Islam imposes the death penalty for apostasy.

For the upteenth time, no Freediver, they are to do with treason.

Many scholars have clarified apostasy laws, and said the same. Yet we are to believe that you know better then them. Righteo.

Which just confirms what i have been stating for many years;

The West, all Western nations, should recognise that ISLAM is a political entity, and so, should treat ISLAM as a political entity.

And NOT as a religious entity.

ISLAM is, the political party of Allah, most gracious, most merciful.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #110 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 10:17am

Lestat wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

Maybe, but they do not punish apostasy with death. Can you see the difference?

No, their is no difference, because in Islam the apostasy laws ARE to do with treason.

Wake up sleepers!!!

ISLAM is...The political party of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, masquerading as a 'religion'.

Duh.

Dictionary,
religion = =
1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. Ø a particular system of faith and worship.
2 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.

Typically, 'religion' is understood to be the devotion to, and the worship of, a God.

Religion, does not justify the murder of all who would resist your WORLDLY, POLITICAL influence.

But ISLAM does justify the murder of all who would resist its WORLDLY, POLITICAL influence.

And that is why ISLAM is primarily a political ideology.

Which is focused intently on the generation of hatred, towards, and against, anyone who demonstrates any resistance to its political influence and authority.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #111 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 10:29am

Lestat wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

I bring it up because it is part of Islam, which is what we are discussing.

The death penalty for treason is a part of Islam, as it is a part of many countries laws.

What you are discussing isn't a part of Islam, except in your twisted hate filled mind.

What i wrote on OzPol, back in 2008;

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226196753/0#0

ISLAM is a facade, of falsehood and lies.

If you study ISLAM just a little, you will discover that ISLAM *behaves* in the world, it acts the part, of a violent, supremacist *political* philosophy.

ISLAM cloaks itself, indeed VEILS itself, behind the word 'RELIGION'.

In truth, ISLAM is fascism.

Dictionary,
fascism = = an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government.

ISLAM is a totalitarian 'government' system.

ISLAM is a system of laws.

ISLAM is about war fighting, it is a philosophy of lies, deception, of accumulating the booty of this world.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #112 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 10:40am

Lestat wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

I have made it very clear what my problem with Islam is. You are trying very deperately to change the topic to anything but Islam.

Yes you have, it has more to do with bigotry then anything else.

You say you have a problem with any idealogy that infringes on 'personal freedoms'...yet seems you are to thick to realise that all laws, in some way...infringe on personal freedoms. That is the point of having laws.

I'm sure that there are plenty of Australians out there who smoke (or would like to) marijuana...aren't there 'personal freedoms' being infringed upon?

Oh...I get it...its only when Islam infringes on 'personal freedoms' which you have a problem with. Its ok for any other idealogy or set of laws to do so...but just not Islam.

Like I said...bigotry freediver.....

Bigotry ???

LOL

That is a case of the pot calling the kettle, if ever there was one.

+++

Bigotry ???

"THE RIGHT TO JUDGE"
"It is not the function of Islam to compromise with the concepts of Jahiliyya which are current in the world or to co-exist in the same land together with a jahili system........"

by SAYYID QUTB
http://www.islamworld.net/justice.html

Did you get that ???

Co-existence, with what is not ISLAMIC, is out!

Dictionary,
bigot = = a person who is intolerant of the opinions of others.

'Jahiliyya' [above] = = [un-ISLAMIC] lifestyle

Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law,

"....Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law, without which Islam cannot exist;"
"...true Islam is a complete system with no room for any element of Jahiliyya"
"...all aspects of Jahiliyya...are "evil and corrupt" "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyya#Jahiliyya_in_contemporary_society

The 'Jahiliyya' [un-ISLAMIC] lifestyle is totally incompatible with ISLAM,
....in fact, to devout moslems, the mere existence of non-moslem communities is viewed as insulting to the authority of ISLAM.
You see, moslems [in their own eyes] are superior, and 'deserve' to have 'authority', to rule the whole world, for Allah.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lestat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1403	Re: In defence of Islam Reply #113 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 1:11pm Can someone please turn the spam bot off, its becoming annoying.
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freediver

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #114 - Jul 15^th, 2011 at 7:57pm

Les, can you explain why Abu thinks apostasy is a capital offence?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 7:44pm:

Quote:

What is that again? I think there was some abiguity last time we touched on that.

Not from me, perhaps with Malik. Apostasy is a capital offense.

Also, it was my understanding, probably from Abu or Malik, that this only applied to Muslims who reject Islam, not to people who were never a Muslim. Hence my query regarding definition take on apostasy.

Quote:

Yes you have, it has more to do with bigotry then anything else. You say you have a problem with any idealogy that infringes on 'personal freedoms'...yet seems you are to thick to realise that all laws, in some way...infringe on personal freedoms. That is the point of having laws.

There is an important difference here Les. Living with other people infringes your freedom, because certain freedoms become incompatible. The difference is that some people want to design laws to protect personal freedom and only limit it to protect the rights and freedoms of others, whereas other ideologies (eg Islam) simply do away with freedom altogether. The inability to protect absolute freedom in a complex society does not mean that all legal systems treat freedom the same.

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« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2011 at 8:07pm by freediver »

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Lestat

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #115 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 9:58am

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 7:57pm:

Les, can you explain why Abu thinks apostasy is a capital offence?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 7:44pm:

Quote:

What is that again? I think there was some abiguity last time we touched on that.

Not from me, perhaps with Malik. Apostasy is a capital offense.

Also, it was my understanding, probably from Abu or Malik, that this only applied to Muslims who reject Islam, not to people who were never a Muslim. Hence my query regarding definition take on apostasy.

Quote:

Yes you have, it has more to do with bigotry then anything else. You say you have a problem with any idealogy that infringes on 'personal freedoms'...yet seems you are to thick to realise that all laws, in some way...infringe on personal freedoms. That is the point of having laws.

There is an important difference here Les. Living with other people infringes your freedom, because certain freedoms become incompatible. The difference is that some people want to design laws to protect personal freedom and only limit it to protect the rights and freedoms of others, whereas other ideologies (eg Islam) simply do away with freedom altogether. The inability to protect absolute freedom in a complex society does not mean that all legal systems treat freedom the same.

lol, deliberately misquoting to support your lies. How pathetic Freediver. Why don't you post a link to the whole thread, so everyone can see your lies for what they are. Oh right...didn't think so.

Besides, do you think I am the spokesperson for Abu and Malik? Why don't you ask them.

I provided you a link, and have told you what I, as a muslim believe, and showed you that many muslims believe the same, yet you continue with the same lies.

Like I said, if anyone ever needed proof of why we don't take you seriously...then you need look no futher then here.

As for the rest of your double standard crap...like seriously, I find it rather boring and shallow...to say the least.

Tell me once again...how is smoking Marijuana...incompatible with your freedoms, and how does banning it 'protect the rights and freedoms of others'.

You see Freediver, you are so blind in your ignorance, that you cannot see Islam and Shariah law plays the exact same role as common law. Its just that we muslims have different values then you. We have different ethics, where you don't have them at all. For example, you feel its ok to ship your elderley off to homes, neglect them, ignore them and visit once or twice a year...in a shallow attempt to show you care. We on the other hand find this sort of thing abhorrent.

You think its fine for men and woman get stupidly drunk on a weekly basis, find a random partner and like animals, have sex with complete strangers. We find this rather barbaric.

So we have laws against these things. Just as you have laws against smoking Marijuana...as society see's this as unacceptable.

in what constitutes 'protect the rights and freedoms of others'.

Your double standards are staggering, and your failure to see those double standards is evidence of your lack of insight.

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« Last Edit: Jul 19^th, 2011 at 10:04am by Lestat »

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: In defence of Islam Reply #116 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 11:21am Lestat wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 1:11pm: Can someone please turn the spam bot off, its becoming annoying. What spam bot?? You mean the truth??
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Lestat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1403	Re: In defence of Islam Reply #117 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 11:31am Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 19^th, 2011 at 11:21am: Lestat wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 1:11pm: Can someone please turn the spam bot off, its becoming annoying. What spam bot?? You mean the truth?? well well, if it isn't the bimbo cheerleader who's arrived. Do you have your pom poms today??
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freediver

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #118 - Jul 19^th, 2011 at 7:49pm

Quote:

Why don't you post a link to the whole thread, so everyone can see your lies for what they are. Oh right...didn't think so.

I did Les.

Quote:

Besides, do you think I am the spokesperson for Abu and Malik?

When I previously suggested Abu supports the death penalty for apostasy, you accused me of lying and demanded I quote him. So I did.

Quote:

I provided you a link, and have told you what I, as a muslim believe, and showed you that many muslims believe the same, yet you continue with the same lies.

What lies exactly? If muslims like Abu consider you an apostate for having a different opinion, how is that going to help you if they ever get their way?

Quote:

You see Freediver, you are so blind in your ignorance, that you cannot see Islam and Shariah law plays the exact same role as common law. Its just that we muslims have different values then you.

Duh, why do you think I called the wiki page "Islam and Australian values"? We value freedom, you value the everyone's submission to your ideology. Right?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: In defence of Islam Reply #119 - Aug 7^th, 2011 at 3:06pm Les? Do you still think I was misquoting Abu on apostasy?
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