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In defence of Islam (Read 18650 times)

Belgarion

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #30 - Jun 30^th, 2011 at 6:21pm

Lestat wrote on Jun 30^th, 2011 at 9:18am:

Belgarion wrote on Jun 29^th, 2011 at 11:45pm:

This thread is interesting. As an agnostic I find it strange that any person can claim to know Gods will, let alone have recieved a complete set of instructions on how ones life should be led. If God exists, (and I do not claim that he doesn't) what makes anyone think that an all powerful entity either wants or needs your worship or really cares what you do?

Interesting you bring this up. This is what agnostics (and athiests for that matter) do not or do not want to understand.

You are right in one respect though...God does not need our worship. Whether we worship God or not, does not make one iota of a difference to His Glory, His Power.

God does not want us to worship Him for His sake...It is for 'OUR" sake. Worshipping God is not for 'His' beneift, it is for 'our' benefit.

When I pray my daily prayers, it is for my benefit, not His. God does not 'need' our prayers...you are correct. But he does 'want' our prayers. Why? Because he loves us, he created us.

There is a hadith, where it is stated that God gave only a fraction of the love He feels (1%) to the world and mankind. Thats to say, of all the love that is felt on earth throughout the ages, all the love a mother has for her child, or vice versa. A father for thier son, and vice versa. A husband for his wife, and vice versa. All this love, is only a fraction of the love that God has us.

He wants the best for us...and the best for us, is to worship Him. This is what we know. We don't know why, we don't know how, but we do know HE is our creator, and HE wants whats best for us.

Now the choice is ours. Either we reject His Message, reject His advice, reject His love. Or accept it.

As for your first question. We (muslims) know...from the Quran, and the example set from the last of His prophets. The Quran is the world of God, protected by Him, and the only of the scriptures that has stood the test of time, word for word, letter for letter, in its original form.

It is these words that have made grown men cry, these words that have inspired and brought down empires...it is the book that impacts those that read it in ways you cannot imagine.

It was these words, and His prophet, that inspired the most backwards of people at the time, to rise to one of the greatest empires this world has ever seen. The only true 'Kingdom of God', foretold by prophets before which the Christians are still ignorantly waiting for.

Unless you have actually read it for yourself, whole, with an open mind, then you cannot understand.

Of course, if you choose to take Yadda's cut and pastes, which I, as others have shown previously to be deliberate misleading quotes, or taken out of context (yes, I have actually found his quotes to be in fact blatant lies..he changes a word here, or a word there, which completely changes the meaning of the sentence..when this has been highlighted to him, he just replies with another half page cut and paste...gets boring really) as the text and meaning of the Quran...or what the media and anti-islamic sites tell you...well thats your perogative.

And your loss!

Organised religion, no matter what the faith, is nothing more than a means of social and political control. It holds out the promise of eternal life in the next world in return for obedience in this one. It bases its authority on a set of holy writings that have allegedly come directly from God to some inspired messenger. Questioning the message, and thus the authority of the religious leaders, is discouraged, and it has the handy catch-all of 'Gods will' to justify any actions by its adherents.

We have all seen the results of this. Any free thinking and intelligent person can see organised religion for what it is.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #31 - Jun 30^th, 2011 at 7:57pm

Lestat wrote on Jun 30^th, 2011 at 9:18am:

Of course, if you choose to take Yadda's cut and pastes, which I, as others have shown previously to be deliberate misleading quotes, or taken out of context (yes, I have actually found his quotes to be in fact blatant lies..he changes a word here, or a word there, which completely changes the meaning of the sentence..when this has been highlighted to him, he just replies with another half page cut and paste...gets boring really) as the text and meaning of the Quran....

Lestat,

I do not misrepresent ISLAM to anyone.

And in fact, moslems themselves seem to understand what ISLAM is about, perfectly, from their own reading of ISLAMIC texts....

e.g. #1,

THE WORDS OF A MAN WHO UNDERSTANDS WHAT ISLAM IS....

"....Battle, animosity, and hatred -- directed from the Muslim to the infidel -- is the foundation of our religion.."

OBL

ISLAM's way of achieving 'peace' explained - according to Osama Bin Laden...
OR,
Advice to real moslems, on how to be 'rightly guided' in your worldly relationships with infidels.

November 10, 2008
Raymond Ibrahim: "Islam's Doctrines of Deception"
Quote:

"As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High's Word: ‘We renounce you. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us -- till you believe in Allah alone’ [Koran 60:4]. So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. And this fierce hostility -- that is, battle -- ceases only if the infidel submits to the authority of Islam, or if his blood is forbidden from being shed [i.e., a dhimmi], or if Muslims are at that point in time weak and incapable [i.e., taqiyya]. But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy! Such, then, is the basis and foundation of the relationship between the infidel and the Muslim. Battle, animosity, and hatred -- directed from the Muslim to the infidel -- is the foundation of our religion. And we consider this a justice and kindness to them" (from The Al Qaeda Reader).
.....It bears repeating that this hostile world view is well supported by all of Islam’s schools of jurisprudence."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/11/raymond-ibrahim-islams-doctrines-of-deception....

n.b. the words....

".....But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy!"

Translation....

If the hatred for non-moslems, at any time extinguishes from the heart of a moslem, "this is great apostasy!"

i.e.
You can only be a REAL moslem, if you have a burning HATRED for non-moslems.

e.g. #2,

The text from the Koran....

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

Here, the 'understanding' of what the Koran promotes and encourages, by an an ISLAMIC scholar....

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb, reputedly one of ISLAM's most influential thinkers.iMore moslems 'misunderstanding' ISLAM ???

Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-p...

AND,

Cleric preaches that violence is part of Islam
01/05/2007
In documents seen by The Daily Telegraph, al-Muhajiroun claimed: "Terrorism is a part of Islam" and "Allah made it obligatory to prepare and to terrify the enemy of Allah".
The article advised: "The kuffar of USA and UK are without doubt our enemy. There is no such thing as an innocent kafir, innocence is only applicable for the Muslims. Not only is it obligatory to fight them, it is haram [forbidden] to feel sorry for them."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550211/Cleric-preaches-that-violence-is-...

AND,

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims
London, Sept.8 [2007]
A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

Funny isn't it, how many, many, moslems also 'misunderstand' what the Koran encourages.

Hilarious.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #32 - Jun 30^th, 2011 at 8:30pm

Belgarion wrote on Jun 30^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

Organised religion, no matter what the faith, is nothing more than a means of social and political control.

It holds out the promise of eternal life in the next world in return for obedience in this one. It bases its authority on a set of holy writings that have allegedly come directly from God to some inspired messenger. Questioning the message, and thus the authority of the religious leaders, is discouraged, and it has the handy catch-all of 'Gods will' to justify any actions by its adherents.

We have all seen the results of this.

Any free thinking and intelligent person can see organised religion for what it is.

Belgarion,

Unfortunately, regretfully, i must agree.

I will concede that i believe, that many sincere people are caught up within organised religions, but i still feel that for the most part many of those organised religions are, the blind leading the blind,
...and sometimes for very nefarious reasons.

"He that serves God for money, will serve the Devil for better wages."

Sir Roger L’Estrange

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #33 - Jun 30^th, 2011 at 9:33pm

Quote:

When youre dead, youre dead

You seem to be missing the point leon. It is the long drawn out agony before the death that I was asking you about. What do you think of it? Is it a good thing or a bad thing. Very simple question here. I suppose you think it is good if the community supports it.

Quote:

No, justice is decided on the law, the facts and the judgment is decided by the community. That is the procedure.

So you have no sense of what is right and wrong other than what the law says? Justice only exists in legislation?

Quote:

If it is overseas then you can act as a private person to interfere but you shouldnt expect your government to act solely on your behalf and opinion.

You have completely avoided the question leon. Obviously the government is going to represent the views of more than one person in a democracy. You can have an opinion on whether we should intervene regardless of whether the government acts on your opinion. So what is your opinion? Should we only act as individual vigilantes and not as a community? How can you defer everything to the community but insist we act as individuals at the same time?

Quote:

If the cults are in Australia then they are subject to Australian laws

You referred to communities. What exactly do you mean? Do you mean nations - that we have no right to interfere across a recognised international border? The sovereignty of an extablished nation comes before all else - including the rights of its citizens?

Quote:

I take it that you are referring to a preteen girl who commits adultery while married to an adult male? Again, let the community decide.

There you go with the community thing again. What if that community is a cult in Australia? Does the government then decide? What if the community decides to inflict an prolonged agonising death on the girl? Is it all OK so long as 'the community' wants it? Is the community merely a convenient cop-oput whose definition you can change to suit what you want the outcome to be? Something to legitimise whatever decision you came to by some other means?

Quote:

What I find more disturbing about your question is that being you seem to find it wrong that she is married to a pedophile and yet think its not a big deal to sleep around with others

Don't tell me what I think. If you want to know what I think, ask me. I won't play your idiotic games to avoid giving my opinion.

Quote:

Law + facts + community x judgment = justice
Not political correctness which drowns justice in ideology procedures, bureaucracy and old fashioned self interest and corruption

So justice has nothing to do with what is fair and just? Whatever 'the community' decides is justice, so long as they write it down into law and get the facts right?

Quote:

Since when did the peoples and nations of the world appoint you to be their saviour?

I am asking you for your opinion, not to appoint me as anyone's saviour. I do not have to be a saviour to ask such a simple question, nor for you to answer it. All it takes is for both of us to be able to think for ourselves. Why are you so afraid to give your opinion? After all, this is your thread to speak out in defense of Islam, and all of a sudden you find yourself incapable of defending it, other than to say it is not your place or my place to have an opinion on whatever evil thing the Islamic 'community' mistakes for justice.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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leon_the_14

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #34 - Jul 1^st, 2011 at 4:06am

This is what you asked me....
Quote:

Leon what are your thoughts on stoning the cheating child brides to death?

What about the death penalty for apostasy?

What about the destruction of democracy and denial basic freedoms like freedom of speech?

You asked me for my thoughts/opinion and I have already answered it.

Quote:

It depends on the crime committed, if there was a fair trial and if the jury (which is representative of the community) has come to an unanimous verdict without reservation of guilt aka majority rule. You as a member of the community may have reservation about how the sentence is carried out, but if according to the law which governs the community that's the punishment,...well that's the punishment.

Quote:

So you have no sense of what is right and wrong other than what the law says? Justice only exists in legislation?

I have a sense of right and wrong, remember common laws were based on the 10 Commandments but now it all about political correctness. Justice is about balance and the greater good of people within a society within the sovereign borders of the nation or its states/provinces. Justice can be achieved either within or without the state.

Quote:

You have completely avoided the question leon. Obviously the government is going to represent the views of more than one person in a democracy.

Doesn't mean they are going to represent the majority

Quote:

You can have an opinion on whether we should intervene regardless of whether the government acts on your opinion. So what is your opinion? Should we only act as individual vigilantes and not as a community? How can you defer everything to the community but insist we act as individuals at the same time?

You can have an opinion as an individual, if the majority of your fellow citizens agree that intervention is necessary and a good thing then it gives the government a mandate to do so. Otherwise you're on your own

Quote:

You referred to communities. What exactly do you mean?

The citizens of a nation are included in various communities eg. religious, racial, geographical etc. they in turn form a state community and those communities form a community of citizens (and non-citizens for that matter) on a national basis.
I suppose the better term would be 'society'

Quote:

Do you mean nations - that we have no right to interfere across a recognised international border? The sovereignty of an extablished nation comes before all else - including the rights of its citizens?

Who's we?
You wouldn't appreciate foreigners/governments interfering with our sovereignty, so why would they appreciate us doing the same? As I said, always a spare spot in the front line in Libya.

Quote:

There you go with the community thing again.

Yeah, aint the general public an annoyance?

Quote:

What if that community is a cult in Australia?

It would have to be a pretty big cult to the extent that it could elect politicians and bring about changes/new laws that would be accepted by the majority and have judges and juries that would enact on them.

Quote:

Does the government then decide? What if the community decides to inflict an prolonged agonising death on the girl?

The law decides if there is a charge to be made, then there is a trial by jury, then the judge makes the sentence (if jury find guilty), then an appeal could be made and if it fails the state carries out the sentence.

Quote:

Is it all OK so long as 'the community' wants it?

Wash, lather, rinse, repeat cycle

Quote:

Is the community merely a convenient cop-oput whose definition you can change to suit what you want the outcome to be?

Jury - 12 people selected at random whos individual opinions are no greater or lesser than other jury members.

Quote:

Something to legitimise whatever decision you came to by some other means?

I am not a 1 man prosecutor, jury, judge or executioner. No one is.

Quote:

Don't tell me what I think. If you want to know what I think, ask me. I won't play your idiotic games to avoid giving my opinion.

Oh cry me a nappyful

Quote:

So justice has nothing to do with what is fair and just? Whatever 'the community' decides is justice, so long as they write it down into law and get the facts right?

Yeah, let's not let the facts interfere with it.
Speaking of which you have asked for my opinion on hypotheticals, you have not defined a particular situation, nor provided facts, nor provided a reference to your hypothetical "situation". You've asked me to give an opinion on your opinion, here's my opinion -you're a goose

« Last Edit: Jul 1^st, 2011 at 4:14am by leon_the_14 »

PRAISE JEHOVAH

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leon_the_14

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #35 - Jul 1^st, 2011 at 4:11am

And this bit

Quote:

If you're the best the SPA can muster then it should stop posing as a political party and start selling tupperware door to door....maybe then you'd get to see and understand the community

PRAISE JEHOVAH

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boogieman

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #36 - Jul 1^st, 2011 at 11:12am

leon_the_14 wrote on Jun 26^th, 2011 at 9:22pm:

Praise the name of Jehovah
His unity is in his oness
God, Lord and Creator is he and he alone
He is the God of Adam
He is the God of Moses
He is the God of Jesus
He is the God of Mohammed
He is the God of All
Praise his name

I am not writing this to promote the interests of any particular sect or defined religion for that matter. I am writing this because I am sick of people rubbishing the God of Abraham via the various sects and religions pertaining to him. The only creatures who have an interest in opposing the God of Abraham are atheists and satanists, the satanists play the pipe and dickhead atheists dance to their tune.

For the record I am a monotheist. I only believe in the God of Abraham, to me his name is Jehovah. With muslims he is called Allah and jews call him Yahweh, for the metaphysical/esoterically minded he is known as YHVH.
There is no other God....period.

I am not a muslim as it is accepted at the moment, muslims largely donot regard me as one because although I have no problem with the Koran I donot accept the Hadith. In the same way I do not accept supposed sayings of Jesus, especially the ones being touted in left wing churches. Now marxist clergy spout their godless ideology with old English idioms and simply claim that Jesus said them. The same with the hadith, apparantely Mohammed is still issuing his sayings but now it is in urdu. What makes it worse is that it is being peddled by illiterate paki mullahs and worse than that is that their followers accept it unquestionably because they have no access to information to compare it with.
So what is the problem people have with islam?
OK lets be brutally honest....
No drinking
No gambling
No pork
No adultery

I'll tell you a story, a 'christian' guy i knew went into a halal restuarant one Easter and wished the owner a happy easter. He then went on to do this to the others there eating, one muslim replied 'bugger you and bugger your Jesus!' The other muslims there took umbrage at this guy, telling this clown that as a muslim he should never say this. A week later he invited me for lunch, i went to see him. He then said he wanted to go to the halal resturant to which I agreed, he then took out a bottle of wine from the fridge and said he wanted to drink it there. I said if it was a halal restuarant then you cant drink there, he said that the owner allowed it (i'd never been there before so i did not know). When we arrived there I saw that it was definitely a halal restuarant, i told him that as a halal restuarant that it cannot have alcohol on the premises. I just assumed he would leave the bottle in the brown paper bag, so we sat down and placed our orders. He asked a member of staff for 2 glasses and a pitcher of water, as i was about to pour the water he said no. Then he took the bottle of wine out of the bag and slammed it on the table obviously trying to get the attention of other diners. As nearly all the other diners were white nobody gave a poo. He then said in a low rent public housing type drawl "IMA OZ-TRAY-LUN AND IM ALLOWD TA DRINK WHEREVER I DAM WELL WANT!!!!!!!!!"
As i said noone gave a poo about the wine or rant, i realised that his 'invitation' to lunch was a setup and he wanted me there as a backup in case things turned nasty.
As far as he was concerned he was a 'good christian' and yet indulges in every vice he can (whores, stealing, etc).

I've come across these sorts of people before, if a preacher says that drinking, gambling, whores etc. are bad he is deemed to be a religious nutjob or 'too conservative' and yet if the local mullah says the same thing then the response is 'i'm a christian! i'm allowed to do these things! this is my country bugger off back to baghdad!'
And if you ask where Jesus gives the thumbs up to these thing in the Bible, the response is 'i'm a (insert whatever nationality here) if you dont like it bugger off back with the rest of them!'

So what are these people actually defending? Their country of birth? Their religion? Or their lifestyle?
I'm going with the last one, For as much as they claim to love their nation and religion ultimately all they really care about is getting pissed and getting their dicks sucked. The nation/religion thing is just a barrier between their lifestyle and anything that would threaten it.
This applies to the stereotypes of redneck and marxist cracka

A nation is based on its communites and communities are based on families and the links between them. The economy of the community is based and functions on the needs and services provided by its individual members. There is a reciprical and complementary economy functioning from it. So WTF does the likes of drink and gambling contribute to such an economy? Nothing, the 'benefits' of drinking are only of a temporary nature and gambling relies on a 99% failure rate for the 'winners' to make any substantial income from it. If the love of money is the root of all evil, then greed is the impetus of that evil and failure is the impetus of both.

Propaganda galore!!!!

There is no defence for Islam. It's a religion. As such, like every other religion, it's a fake. There is no God, or Allah or whatever name you want to give your fantasy. You are deluded.

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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #37 - Jul 1^st, 2011 at 12:41pm

Lestat wrote on Jun 30^th, 2011 at 9:18am:

Belgarion wrote on Jun 29^th, 2011 at 11:45pm:

This thread is interesting.

As an agnostic I find it strange that any person can claim to know Gods will, let alone have recieved a complete set of instructions

on how ones life should be led. If God exists, (and I do not claim that he doesn't) what makes anyone think that an all powerful entity either wants or needs your worship or really cares what you do?

....

As for your first question. We (muslims) know

...from

#1, the Quran, and

#2, the example set from the last of His prophets.

The Quran is the world of God, protected by Him, and the only of the scriptures that has stood the test of time, word for word, letter for letter, in its original form.

How ISLAMIC 'logic' works....

Moslems will declare;

"Mohammed was a prophet of God."

Q. Who said so?

A. Well, God told Mohammed. And then Mohammed told us. [....and that is how we moslems got the Koran too, ....straight from Allah!]

Q. Why should we believe what Mohammed said to us?

A. Because Mohammed was a prophet of God, silly.

Debating moslems, is a 'debate' in circular reasoning.

+++

Deuteronomy 19:15
One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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salad in

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #38 - Jul 1^st, 2011 at 9:39pm

boogieman wrote on Jul 1^st, 2011 at 11:12am:

I was once like you my child. I have been on a magnificent journey only made possible because of religion. I started out as a moderate Baptist. Then I became an immoderate Methodist. From there I joined the Little Pebble cult (I avoided sex with the leader 'Big Dong'). I then flirted with a Neo-Pagan religion where I was classed as a radical/extremist/frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic. It was OK because we could do all sorts of vile stuff and hide behind the religion. It was at this dangerous period of my life that I was introduced to the cult known as New Age Islam and I became a New Age Muslim and we worship Halla. Being a NAM allows me to act in a totally irrational manner and I can hate, detest, and vituperate anyone and anything and I can hide behind my religion.

The one drawback of being a NAM is wearing the black bin liner (compulsory for male NAMs).

When will you come to your senses?

The ALP, the progressive party, the party of ideas, the workers' friend, is the only Australian political party to roast four young Australians in roof cavities. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

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freediver

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #39 - Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 11:06am

Quote:

I realise it is punishment and they may have ticked all the boxes. Are you incapable of recognising any injustice in law other than an error of fact?

Quote:

I have a sense of right and wrong

Obviously you do, as you cannot bring yourself to directly defend these evil things that Islam requires of its followers, even in your own thread 'in defence of Islam.' But you cannot bring yourself to criticise it either, instead deferring to the law or 'cummunuity' opinion as a substitute for actually thinking for yourself.

Quote:

You can have an opinion as an individual,

I realise I can have an opinion, but I am yet to see any evidence that you can.

Quote:

if the majority of your fellow citizens agree that intervention is necessary and a good thing then it gives the government a mandate to do so.

Thanks for explaining democracy to me. Can you go one step further an have your own opinion?

Quote:

You wouldn't appreciate foreigners/governments interfering with our sovereignty, so why would they appreciate us doing the same?

I am not suggesting they would appreciate it. Instead, I am asking if you have an opinion on whether it is a good thing.

Quote:

Yeah, let's not let the facts interfere with it.

I am not suggesting we ignore the facts. I am suggesting that facts, legislation and majority opinion are not sufficient to constitute justice. You said yourself you have a sense of right and wrong, yet everything you post indicates you either do not are are afraid to express it.

Quote:

Speaking of which you have asked for my opinion on hypotheticals

I have asked your opinion about Islam.

Quote:

you have not defined a particular situation

Der. Isn't that what a hypothetical is?

Why are you so afraid to answer such simple questions? Is this a common theme among Muslims - spend ten pages giving excuses for not answering a question?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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leon_the_14

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #40 - Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 3:18pm

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 11:06am:

Quote:

I realise it is punishment and they may have ticked all the boxes. Are you incapable of recognising any injustice in law other than an error of fact?

Quote:

I have a sense of right and wrong

You can have an opinion as an individual,

I realise I can have an opinion, but I am yet to see any evidence that you can.

Quote:

if the majority of your fellow citizens agree that intervention is necessary and a good thing then it gives the government a mandate to do so.

Thanks for explaining democracy to me. Can you go one step further an have your own opinion?

Quote:

You wouldn't appreciate foreigners/governments interfering with our sovereignty, so why would they appreciate us doing the same?

I am not suggesting they would appreciate it. Instead, I am asking if you have an opinion on whether it is a good thing.

Quote:

Yeah, let's not let the facts interfere with it.

Speaking of which you have asked for my opinion on hypotheticals

I have asked your opinion about Islam.

Quote:

you have not defined a particular situation

Der. Isn't that what a hypothetical is?

Why are you so afraid to answer such simple questions? Is this a common theme among Muslims - spend ten pages giving excuses for not answering a question?

I've already given my opinion, thoughts, answers, whatever.
You on the other hand just go around in circles and re-ask your same questions with different wording. You seem to have a severe case of moral relativism where you think that facts, law and community decision has no place in the execution of justice. Your version of justice is about what you think is right to your opinion, regardless of whether it is right or wrong to others. You've made clear that you think Islam is evil and are more concerned with your personal comfort zone regardless of its impact on everyone else and the greater good of the nation.
In other words beer, porn and casual sex for you are the be all and end all....eh?

Quote:

Ah yes, the typical godless response....you're deluded.
Or you're mentally ill, should be locked away, need a mindset modification, etc. etc.
You don't bother with a counter argument or raise any point of contention, just whine the set mantras as per all you god haters do.
Shove off, you're a flyweight

PRAISE JEHOVAH

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freediver

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At my desk.

Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #41 - Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 3:31pm

Quote:

You on the other hand just go around in circles and re-ask your same questions with different wording.

When you said that it depends on what the community wants and the paperwork, I thought maybe you misunderstood my question about whether it is OK to stone a cheating child bride to death. Are you trying to say you think it is a good thing to stone little girls to death for cheating on whatever old man was chosen as their husband? If so, it would avoid a lot of going round in circles if you simply said so. After all, I was asking for your opinion, not whether some backwards community on the other side of the world supports it.

Quote:

You seem to have a severe case of moral relativism where you think that facts, law and community decision has no place in the execution of justice.

No. In fact I went to some lengths to explain this is not the case.

Quote:

Your version of justice is about what you think is right to your opinion, regardless of whether it is right or wrong to others.

And you accuse me of moral relativism?

If I didn't care whether it was right or wrong to others, why would I go to such lengths to get you to offer your opinion?

Quote:

You've made clear that you think Islam is evil and are more concerned with your personal comfort zone regardless of its impact on everyone else and the greater good of the nation.

So the greater good of the nation is more important than whether a cheating child bride gets stoned to death? What exactly do you fear will happen to 'the nation' if Muslims refrain from stoning little girls to death?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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leon_the_14

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atheists.2hell.com

Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #42 - Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 4:31pm

Quote:

When you said that it depends on what the community wants and the paperwork,

As well as the facts and circumstance

Quote:

I thought maybe you misunderstood my question about whether it is OK to stone a cheating child bride to death.

If the punishment has been decided after a full and open trial, then as the death penalty would be a standard punishment for adultery then I would not oppose it. As for the manner of execution I might digress. But no execution could be passed on 1 person for adultery, 1 person cannot commit adultery it takes 2. So there should be 2 people facing execution and until then I would oppose any punishment

Quote:

Are you trying to say you think it is a good thing to stone little girls to death for cheating on whatever old man was chosen as their husband?

In all your attempt to bait me with loaded questions you have not provided a scenario or circumstances of those involved.

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If so, it would avoid a lot of going round in circles if you simply said so.

See above

Quote:

After all, I was asking for your opinion, not whether some backwards community on the other side of the world supports it.

You have not presented a scenario.

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And you accuse me of moral relativism?

Self interest, MUH DIK,...yeah pretty much

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If I didn't care whether it was right or wrong to others, why would I go to such lengths to get you to offer your opinion?

Cause you're trying to bait me to answer out of context

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So the greater good of the nation is more important than whether a cheating child bride gets stoned to death?

Ultimately yes

Quote:

What exactly do you fear will happen to 'the nation' if Muslims refrain from stoning little girls to death?

Can you tell me the last time that muslims stoned little girls to death in AUSTRALIA?

Why do you have to argue your point in emotional language?
Oh that's right....you don't argue a point

How about this...Is it OK to beat minke whales to death with a baseball bat?
Is it OK to kill minke whales?
If so why isn't it OK to beat them to death with a baseball bat?

PRAISE JEHOVAH

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freediver

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #43 - Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 6:26pm

Quote:

As for the manner of execution I might digress.

Wow. That almost sounds like an opinion. Would you actually digress, or are you just teasing me?

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But no execution could be passed on 1 person for adultery, 1 person cannot commit adultery it takes 2. So there should be 2 people facing execution and until then I would oppose any punishment

What if only 1 is married?

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In all your attempt to bait me with loaded questions you have not provided a scenario or circumstances of those involved.

Yes I have. A child bride cheats on the dirty old man her parents convinced her to marry. All the paperwork is in order. She actually committed the 'crime'. Now they want to stone her to death. Can you have an opinion now, or do I have to write a thesis on it first?

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Is it OK to kill minke whales?

Yes. See how easy it is to give an opinion?

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If so why isn't it OK to beat them to death with a baseball bat?

That would just be silly.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: In defence of Islam
Reply #44 - Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 10:11pm

leon_the_14 wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 3:18pm:

You seem to have a severe case of moral relativism where you think that facts, law and community decision has no place in the execution of justice.

leon_the_14 wrote on Jul 1^st, 2011 at 4:06am:

Quote:

So justice has nothing to do with what is fair and just? Whatever 'the community' decides is justice, so long as they write it down into law and get the facts right?

Yeah, let's not let the facts interfere with it.

Speaking of which you have asked for my opinion on hypotheticals, you have not defined a particular situation, nor provided facts, nor provided a reference to your hypothetical "situation".

You've asked me to give an opinion on your opinion, here's my opinion -you're a goose

"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful."

Koran 1.1

Senario #1,

I'm an English teacher working in Sudan.
I suggest that the children in my class give a toy a name.
The broader Sudanese community are outraged at my insult to their religion, and my insult to the prophet of their religion.
They call for my death.
They insist on my death, for insulting the prophet of their religion.
Would their calls for my death, be a 'justice', a just act ?

Senario #2,

I'm a Christian teacher working in Nigeria.
I touch a students school bag, which contains a Koran.
The moslem students in the class murder me, because as an 'unclean' infidel, i have insulted their religion, by touching its holy book.
Is my murder by moslems, for insulting ISLAM, a 'justice', a just act ?

Google;

teacher touched desecrating koran killed

Google;

teacher sudan insult teddybear "must be killed by the sword"

leon,
Were those examples, just another example of more moslems, 'misunderstanding' ISLAM ???

Or were they yet another example of the 'symptom', of what ISLAM is ???

IMO, ISLAM is a human mental sickness, which causes moslems [when they are in a majority] to lash out in violence, and rage against local 'unbelievers'.

And isn't this the truth, that this is what ISLAM teaches to its adherents ???

That their violent rage, against unbelievers [who 'insult' ISLAM] is justified, and is 'sanctified' ???

+++

WHEREAS...compare the above, with...

THE PENALTY - If a soul shall sin through ignorance
...a 'monetary' penalty [i.e. the cost of a sin offering] would be exacted from an offender.

But his/her death is NOT required, .....for a 'sin through ignorance' against God's commandment, normally requiring death, as punishment.

The God of Israel is a just and righteous God.

The God of Israel will not slay any person who, 'sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD'.

Leviticus 4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

Numbers 15:22
And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

Leviticus 4:1-4
Leviticus 4:22-24
Leviticus 5:15-19

« Last Edit: Jul 2^nd, 2011 at 10:20pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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