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Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans (Read 1528 times)
Maqqa
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Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:05am
 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-plan/critics-slam-rushed...

THE government has been accused of being unrealistic about global action on climate change, with critics declaring it is banking on the United States and other key countries to take significant action despite evidence those countries will only make limited efforts.

The opposition will today demand that Treasury be asked to prepare new modelling on Julia Gillard's clean energy plan, arguing the modelling released with Sunday's carbon plan is unrealistic in expecting Australia's major trading partners the US, China and India to join in global action.

An internal analysis for Tony Abbott's office, obtained by The Australian, criticises the government for "evidently rushed" modelling that fails to consider the impact of the $10 billion clean energy fund or the impact of the government's plans to strip 2000MW of dirty brown coal power generation from the electricity grid.

The document, expected to be released today, also warns that some of the modelling is at odds with details of the package struck with the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee

While the modelling assumes the carbon price starts at $20 a tonne, the government has set a starting price of $23 a tonne.

The Coalition analysis also claims that some changes made since the 2008 modelling produced for Kevin Rudd's carbon pollution reduction scheme result in the modelling showing a lower cost to the economy for emissions abatement for most fuels.

"The implication is that Treasury is now assuming that a given carbon price will achieve much more 'bang for the buck' in terms of reducing emissions intensity, for all of gasoline, diesel, LPG, air fuels and other fuels," the note says.

On global action, economist Henry Ergas writes in The Australian today that the modelling implies that the US will act by 2016 and China by 2021, and there will be no backsliding on the promises at the Cancun summit.

"Why these assumptions are plausible, much less compelling, is never explained in Treasury's report," he writes.

The modelling states that "global co-ordinated action emerges from 2016".

Opposition climate action spokesman Greg Hunt said the government should reissue the modelling in full.

"There are some extraordinary assumptions about the development of the international systems in the next decade," he said.

But government sources insisted that the modelling was based on the commitments made by nations at the Copenhagen and Cancun climate change summits, and denied they had been too bullish on global action.

Sources said the modelling assumed that major countries met their commitments and that there would be a global market by 2016.

It was assumed that the US met its Cancun commitments but the US was not necessarily required to join a global market as there was a market within the European Union, the source said.
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Maqqa
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #1 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:08am
 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/commentary/fatal-flaw-in-case-f...

THE one thing you need to know about Treasury's modelling of the carbon tax is this: it assumes that by 2016, the US and all the other developed economies that do not have carbon taxes or emissions trading systems in place will have them up and running.

This implies that in next year's US presidential election, likely to be fought at a time of high unemployment, the winning candidate will campaign on the basis of introducing a carbon tax that will go from zero to $30 a tonne in a matter of months. And that tax will then not only get through Congress but in record time.

Moreover, that feat accomplished, by 2021 China will sign up too, and with 14 per cent of the world's population and barely 20 per cent of world income, will agree to shoulder 34 to 35 per cent of the costs of global mitigation. As part of that deal, China's leadership will accept a fall in national living standards, relative to business as usual, of between 5 and 10 per cent, while per capita incomes in the far wealthier US and European Union decline by a fraction of that amount. And with China on board, the rest of the world will join the party.

These assumptions are central to Treasury's analysis, not least because they ensure that by the time Australia moves to an ETS, there is a fully functioning world market for emissions permits. That world market makes it possible for permits bought overseas to contribute two-thirds of the mitigation we achieve during the period to 2020. In contrast, were the market as it is today, with more than 80 per cent of permit trading occurring within the EU, Australian demand for permits would significantly drive up prices, increasing Treasury's estimated abatement costs.

The only uncertainty Treasury envisages with respect to global action is whether it might not prove even more ambitious in seeking cuts in emissions. There is, in other words, no likelihood of the world not reaching comprehensive, credible agreement, nor is there any possibility of backsliding from the strictly voluntary pledges made at Cancun.

Why these assumptions are plausible, much less compelling, is never explained in Treasury's report. All it says by way of justification is that a "co-ordinated international policy framework is ultimately in all countries' best interests". Perhaps, but so are perpetual peace and global free trade. And history shows it is rarely wise to confuse aspirations for reality.

Rather, sensible analysis requires examining what happens if one's hopes do not eventuate. That, however, is the one outcome Treasury does not consider. It discusses the scenario in which the world acts and we act with it and that in which the rest of the world takes vigorous action while Australia free-rides. But the scenario in which we act while our main competitors do not is never analysed.

That this will be viewed as a glaring omission is plainly not lost on Treasury. It therefore advances a startling proposition: that "if global action is less than assumed, Australian mitigation costs will be lower, not higher, than reported".

Taken at face value, such a claim seems implausible. After all, in the absence of global agreement, action by Australia would be an exercise in futility. As a result, even if unilateral cuts in emissions required fewer resources than needed to achieve comparable cuts on a co-ordinated basis, the fact they were pointless would mean their costs, properly defined, were greater, as good money was being poured down the drain.

But Treasury's point may be subtler: that if we have decided to reduce emissions by some amount, regardless of whether it is futile or not to do so, we might use fewer resources in achieving it when we go it alone.

This, Treasury suggests, is because buying permits overseas would be cheaper under unilateral action, as there would be less demand for them. Perhaps, but the supply of permits would also be far lower and the market in which they are traded less developed and poorly integrated. Additionally, Treasury argues, weaker global action would strengthen world demand for resources compared with Treasury's reference scenario. And indeed it would. But if we act and large parts of the world do not, more of that higher demand will shift to our untaxed or less taxed competitors. With resource prices higher than they would otherwise be, each tonne of coal thus displaced implies a greater loss of Australian income.

As a result, Treasury's claim is hardly compelling. And the fact Treasury provides no modelling to support its assertions does not inspire confidence.

Moreover, if we are indeed committed to reducing Australia's emissions, regardless of whether doing so will make any difference, the policy issue would be how that goal could be achieved at least cost. Imposing a large and steadily rising tax on our exports, as will happen under the government's plan, is surely unlikely to meet that test.

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Maqqa
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #2 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:13am
 
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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number
 
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #3 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:46am
 
Yep..lets just get the unemloyed to plant a few trees  Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Go the Bunnies
 
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #4 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 10:50am
 
adelcrow wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:46am:
Yep..lets just get the unemloyed to plant a few trees  Grin Grin Grin Grin




nup trees are bad.
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #5 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 10:54am
 
just wondering has anyone taken into account the dire straights these countries are in..America and europe in particular.. I would think the amount of debt USA is in to China will have repercussions down the track as well..

with all this debt and wars. and strife in the middle east  can you really see all this CARBON PRICING coming to pass.. is it really at the top of the agenda in these countries?? like it appears to be in ours..
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perceptions_now
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Re: Maqqa's Consistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #6 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 1:06pm
 
Maqqa wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:05am:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-plan/critics-slam-rushed...

THE government has been accused of being unrealistic about global action on climate change, with critics declaring it is banking on the United States and other key countries to take significant action despite evidence those countries will only make limited efforts.

The opposition will today demand that Treasury be asked to prepare new modelling on Julia Gillard's clean energy plan, arguing the modelling released with Sunday's carbon plan is unrealistic in expecting Australia's major trading partners the US, China and India to join in global action.

An internal analysis for Tony Abbott's office, obtained by The Australian, criticises the government for "evidently rushed" modelling that fails to consider the impact of the $10 billion clean energy fund or the impact of the government's plans to strip 2000MW of dirty brown coal power generation from the electricity grid.

The document, expected to be released today, also warns that some of the modelling is at odds with details of the package struck with the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee

While the modelling assumes the carbon price starts at $20 a tonne, the government has set a starting price of $23 a tonne.

The Coalition analysis also claims that some changes made since the 2008 modelling produced for Kevin Rudd's carbon pollution reduction scheme result in the modelling showing a lower cost to the economy for emissions abatement for most fuels.

"The implication is that Treasury is now assuming that a given carbon price will achieve much more 'bang for the buck' in terms of reducing emissions intensity, for all of gasoline, diesel, LPG, air fuels and other fuels," the note says.

On global action, economist Henry Ergas writes in The Australian today that the modelling implies that the US will act by 2016 and China by 2021, and there will be no backsliding on the promises at the Cancun summit.

"Why these assumptions are plausible, much less compelling, is never explained in Treasury's report," he writes.

The modelling states that "global co-ordinated action emerges from 2016".

Opposition climate action spokesman Greg Hunt said the government should reissue the modelling in full.

"There are some extraordinary assumptions about the development of the international systems in the next decade," he said.

But government sources insisted that the modelling was based on the commitments made by nations at the Copenhagen and Cancun climate change summits, and denied they had been too bullish on global action.

Sources said the modelling assumed that major countries met their commitments and that there would be a global market by 2016.

It was assumed that the US met its Cancun commitments but the US was not necessarily required to join a global market as there was a market within the European Union, the source said.


Maqqa consistently makes incorrect assumptions about many things, including Climate Change!
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progressiveslol
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #7 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 1:11pm
 
Well lets wait and see, seeing as what the crap carbon tax lie is not going to do anything for the climate. What is wrong with waiting for 2016.

They will not wait, 1 because labor and greens are idiots, 2 because US and China are not coming on board when they think they are, if at all.
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« Last Edit: Jul 15th, 2011 at 2:02pm by progressiveslol »  
 
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chicken_lipsforme
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #8 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 1:57pm
 
Maqqa wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:08am:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/commentary/fatal-flaw-in-case-f...

THE one thing you need to know about Treasury's modelling of the carbon tax is this: it assumes that by 2016, the US and all the other developed economies that do not have carbon taxes or emissions trading systems in place will have them up and running.



The carbon dioxide tax con might be on every Australian TV news network, front of every Australian newspaper and is the talk of the town every single day of the week, but I understand that carbon dioxide is a non event in the US media right now.
It's all about Obama and the upcoming election, jobs, healthcare, the war, cost of living, housing affordability, homeless etc.
It's simply not being spoken about by anyone, as I would suggest they have too many very real urgent domestic concerns to worry about 'what if' doomsday scenarios spruiked by the bedwetting left.
The US won't implement anything by 2016, except maybe get the troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Maqqa
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #9 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 5:35pm
 
Looking at the replies from the left - F#CK you guys are stupid

You have no courage to admit the assumptions are unrealistic

Without the admission then there is no scope to discuss

And that is the moronic view of the left - no courage, no conviction, no mandate for a carbon tax
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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number
 
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Maqqa
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #10 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 1:15pm
 
Gillard and Swan tries to tell us how they've seek independent advice from the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee

They quote from the forewords of the Treasury report

But lets see:

Who is in charge of the ALP government - Gillard & Swan

Who are the Chair, Co-Deputy Dawg 1 and Co-Deputy Dawg 2 - Gillard, Swan and Combat

Who wrote the foreword of the Treasury report - Swan Combat
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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number
 
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progressiveslol
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #11 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 1:18pm
 
Maqqa wrote on Jul 16th, 2011 at 1:15pm:
Gillard and Swan tries to tell us how they've seek independent advice from the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee

They quote from the forewords of the Treasury report

But lets see:

Who is in charge of the ALP government - Gillard & Swan

Who are the Chair, Co-Deputy Dawg 1 and Co-Deputy Dawg 2 - Gillard, Swan and Combat

Who wrote the foreword of the Treasury report - Swan Combat

lol if that aint rigged, nothing is.
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Re: Maqqa's Consistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #12 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 1:31pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 1:06pm:
Maqqa wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:05am:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-plan/critics-slam-rushed...

THE government has been accused of being unrealistic about global action on climate change, with critics declaring it is banking on the United States and other key countries to take significant action despite evidence those countries will only make limited efforts.

The opposition will today demand that Treasury be asked to prepare new modelling on Julia Gillard's clean energy plan, arguing the modelling released with Sunday's carbon plan is unrealistic in expecting Australia's major trading partners the US, China and India to join in global action.

An internal analysis for Tony Abbott's office, obtained by The Australian, criticises the government for "evidently rushed" modelling that fails to consider the impact of the $10 billion clean energy fund or the impact of the government's plans to strip 2000MW of dirty brown coal power generation from the electricity grid.

The document, expected to be released today, also warns that some of the modelling is at odds with details of the package struck with the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee

While the modelling assumes the carbon price starts at $20 a tonne, the government has set a starting price of $23 a tonne.

The Coalition analysis also claims that some changes made since the 2008 modelling produced for Kevin Rudd's carbon pollution reduction scheme result in the modelling showing a lower cost to the economy for emissions abatement for most fuels.

"The implication is that Treasury is now assuming that a given carbon price will achieve much more 'bang for the buck' in terms of reducing emissions intensity, for all of gasoline, diesel, LPG, air fuels and other fuels," the note says.

On global action, economist Henry Ergas writes in The Australian today that the modelling implies that the US will act by 2016 and China by 2021, and there will be no backsliding on the promises at the Cancun summit.

"Why these assumptions are plausible, much less compelling, is never explained in Treasury's report," he writes.

The modelling states that "global co-ordinated action emerges from 2016".

Opposition climate action spokesman Greg Hunt said the government should reissue the modelling in full.

"There are some extraordinary assumptions about the development of the international systems in the next decade," he said.

But government sources insisted that the modelling was based on the commitments made by nations at the Copenhagen and Cancun climate change summits, and denied they had been too bullish on global action.

Sources said the modelling assumed that major countries met their commitments and that there would be a global market by 2016.

It was assumed that the US met its Cancun commitments but the US was not necessarily required to join a global market as there was a market within the European Union, the source said.


Maqqa consistently makes incorrect assumptions about many things, including Climate Change!


If so, then so has Henry Ergas,

"Henry Ergas is a regulatory economist who has worked at the OECD, Australian Trade Practices Commission (now the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) and the Australian Centre of Regulatory Economics (ACORE) Advisory Group. He chaired the Australian Intellectual Property and Competition Review Committee set up by the Australian Federal Government in 1999 to review Australia's intellectual property laws as they relate to competition policy. He is Adjunct Professor of Economics at the National University of Singapore and has taught at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, the Centre for Research in Network Economics and Communications at the University of Auckland, Monash University and at the Ecole Nationale de la Statistique et de l'Administration Economique in Paris"

Sounds pretty qualified...
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Maqqa
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Re: Inconsistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #13 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 1:55pm
 
Page 2

Two international global action scenarios,
assuming the world takes action
to stabilise greenhouse gas concentration levels at around either 550 ppm or 450 ppm by around 2100, provide a credible and realistic backdrop to examine the impact of pricing carbon in Australia



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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: Maqqa's Consistent assumptions in carbon plans
Reply #14 - Jul 16th, 2011 at 2:34pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 16th, 2011 at 1:31pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 1:06pm:
Maqqa wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 9:05am:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-plan/critics-slam-rushed...

THE government has been accused of being unrealistic about global action on climate change, with critics declaring it is banking on the United States and other key countries to take significant action despite evidence those countries will only make limited efforts.

The opposition will today demand that Treasury be asked to prepare new modelling on Julia Gillard's clean energy plan, arguing the modelling released with Sunday's carbon plan is unrealistic in expecting Australia's major trading partners the US, China and India to join in global action.

An internal analysis for Tony Abbott's office, obtained by The Australian, criticises the government for "evidently rushed" modelling that fails to consider the impact of the $10 billion clean energy fund or the impact of the government's plans to strip 2000MW of dirty brown coal power generation from the electricity grid.

The document, expected to be released today, also warns that some of the modelling is at odds with details of the package struck with the Multi-Party Climate Change Committee

While the modelling assumes the carbon price starts at $20 a tonne, the government has set a starting price of $23 a tonne.

The Coalition analysis also claims that some changes made since the 2008 modelling produced for Kevin Rudd's carbon pollution reduction scheme result in the modelling showing a lower cost to the economy for emissions abatement for most fuels.

"The implication is that Treasury is now assuming that a given carbon price will achieve much more 'bang for the buck' in terms of reducing emissions intensity, for all of gasoline, diesel, LPG, air fuels and other fuels," the note says.

On global action, economist Henry Ergas writes in The Australian today that the modelling implies that the US will act by 2016 and China by 2021, and there will be no backsliding on the promises at the Cancun summit.

"Why these assumptions are plausible, much less compelling, is never explained in Treasury's report," he writes.

The modelling states that "global co-ordinated action emerges from 2016".

Opposition climate action spokesman Greg Hunt said the government should reissue the modelling in full.

"There are some extraordinary assumptions about the development of the international systems in the next decade," he said.

But government sources insisted that the modelling was based on the commitments made by nations at the Copenhagen and Cancun climate change summits, and denied they had been too bullish on global action.

Sources said the modelling assumed that major countries met their commitments and that there would be a global market by 2016.

It was assumed that the US met its Cancun commitments but the US was not necessarily required to join a global market as there was a market within the European Union, the source said.


Maqqa consistently makes incorrect assumptions about many things, including Climate Change!


If so, then so has Henry Ergas,

"Henry Ergas is a regulatory economist who has worked at the OECD, Australian Trade Practices Commission (now the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) and the Australian Centre of Regulatory Economics (ACORE) Advisory Group. He chaired the Australian Intellectual Property and Competition Review Committee set up by the Australian Federal Government in 1999 to review Australia's intellectual property laws as they relate to competition policy. He is Adjunct Professor of Economics at the National University of Singapore and has taught at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, the Centre for Research in Network Economics and Communications at the University of Auckland, Monash University and at the Ecole Nationale de la Statistique et de l'Administration Economique in Paris"

Sounds pretty qualified...


Maqqa's first error here, is to ASSuME that the real/primary purpose of the Carbon Tax is relating to a Climate fix!

It is not, the primary reason for the Carbon Tax, is that it is a revenue raising tax. Furthermore, when the Liberals do win their next election, they may well scrap the Carbon Tax, but (if they do) they will replace it with another tax and they will do so for the same reason, that taxes will have to increase, to pay for expenditures that must grow substantially in the years ahead!




Which reminds me of another ASSuMPTION that Maqqa has been making for some time, which I recently commented on.

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 16th, 2011 at 2:16pm:
Re: Interest rates to fall

No, that can't be right, Maqqa & the Liberals said the rates were going up & Maqqa is always RIGHT?




Maqqa & the Liberal Conservatives (a great oxymoron) also ASSuME that AUS-terity will fix the current local & Global Economic woes, IT WILL NOT!

Maqqa & the Liberal Conservatives also ASSuME that they are the natural masters of the Economic universe, BUT THE ARE NOT, they are simply mired in a past that bears no resemblance to now or the future!
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