Australian Politics Forum - Is Religion compatible with Evolution?

Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #180 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am

Perhaps this will help illustrate my point a tad further.

John Chapter 8

VERSE 3- 5: - "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"

VERSE 7 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #181 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:31am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

John 8:3-30

VERSE 3- 5: - "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"

VERSE 7 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

You're forgetting that Jesus absolved her without punishment. The Pauline Christian text would have it that Judaic law is redundant (particularly as it was often at odds with Roman law).

Would you will the same for today's criminals?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #182 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:32am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:25am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:18am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:14am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:12am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:10am:

Jesus told these self righteous hypocrites to go ahead and cast the 1st stone .. if they themselves had never sinned at all.

So you'd believe that today's criminals should be forgiven, not punished?

Read my post again .. and in its entirety. You've missed the point entirely.

I understand the text... The sinful woman (adulterer) was a criminal in the 1st century (Adultery being a crime then). Jesus suggested that a criminal should be forgiven not punished. Just because a crime in the bible is not a crime today, does not mean the text is relevant today with regard to its possible original meaning.

In short .. you can read but you cannot understand the point of the passage.

This hint may help you .. think back to what this topic is about ie RELIGION.

Now read my post again ..

Being intentionally obtuse only masks your pseudo-understanding of the subject.

Is that what you think? It could be that you really don't understand what you're reading you know.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #183 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:31am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

John 8:3-30

VERSE 3- 5: - "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"

VERSE 7 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

You're forgetting that Jesus absolved her without punishment. The Pauline Christian text would have it that Judaic law is redundant (particularly as it was often at odds with Roman law).

Would you will the same for today's criminals?

Actually .. I'm not forgetting the point of the passage at all.

But I've noticed that you keep ignoring it for some reason.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution? Reply #184 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:32am: Is that what you think? It could be that you really don't understand what you're reading you know. Or it could be that you don't really know or believe what you are talking about and you're trying to mask it by being obtuse.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #185 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:35am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:31am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

John 8:3-30

VERSE 3- 5: - "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"

VERSE 7 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

You're forgetting that Jesus absolved her without punishment. The Pauline Christian text would have it that Judaic law is redundant (particularly as it was often at odds with Roman law).

Would you will the same for today's criminals?

Actually .. I'm not forgetting the point of the passage at all.

But I've noticed that you keep ignoring it for some reason.

As I said, I understand the text and the Pauline reason for denigrating Judaic law (in favour of Jewish adherence to Roman law).

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #186 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:36am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:32am:

Is that what you think? It could be that you really don't understand what you're reading you know.

Or it could be that you don't really know or believe what you are talking about and you're trying to mask it by being obtuse.

Well .. if you read back .. you will note that I am the one doing a lot of the answering whilst you and a few others are just sitting there doing a lot of the asking.

That in itself is very telling.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #187 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:37am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:36am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:32am:

Is that what you think? It could be that you really don't understand what you're reading you know.

Or it could be that you don't really know or believe what you are talking about and you're trying to mask it by being obtuse.

Well .. if you read back .. you will note that I am the one doing a lot of the answering whilst you and a few others are just sitting there doing a lot of the asking.

That in itself is very telling.

I think if you read back, you will note that I have made more statements than asked questions.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #188 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:35am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:31am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:28am:

John 8:3-30

VERSE 3- 5: - "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"

VERSE 7 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

You're forgetting that Jesus absolved her without punishment. The Pauline Christian text would have it that Judaic law is redundant (particularly as it was often at odds with Roman law).

Would you will the same for today's criminals?

Actually .. I'm not forgetting the point of the passage at all.

But I've noticed that you keep ignoring it for some reason.

As I said, I understand the text and the Pauline reason for denigrating Judaic law (in favour of Jewish adherence to Roman law).

I don't think you understand the text I've referenced at all to be quite honest.

Why?? You keep ignoring the point of the text .. as well as its relevance to this topic.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #189 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:41am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am:

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

I don't think you understand the text I've referenced at all to be quite honest.

Why?? You keep ignoring the point of the text .. as well as its relevance to this topic.

Was he? Or were the Pauline-affected writers of the Gospel making a statement about the subservience of Judaic Law with regard to Roman Law?

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #190 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:47am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:24am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:17am:

It is true that many players have attempted to tamper with the Bible over the years. That is all that's really happened though.

These 'players' were religious scholars and Church leaders of their day... As were many of the originators of the texts.

As you've never read an original manuscript, nor, I suspect, are you aware that significant changes have occurred over the centuries, you're not in a position to know whether the current versions are a true and accurate expression of the original biblical texts (which they are not) nor do you seem to be aware that the legacy of Jesus was hotly debated for nearly 300 years after his death with fatal consequences for the losers.

The New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek .. and as it so happens I do have access to that Bible actually. In fact I was first introduced to it at age 5 by my Greek mother.

You shouldn't assume too much about people you don't know.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #191 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:47am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:24am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:17am:

It is true that many players have attempted to tamper with the Bible over the years. That is all that's really happened though.

These 'players' were religious scholars and Church leaders of their day... As were many of the originators of the texts.

As you've never read an original manuscript, nor, I suspect, are you aware that significant changes have occurred over the centuries, you're not in a position to know whether the current versions are a true and accurate expression of the original biblical texts (which they are not) nor do you seem to be aware that the legacy of Jesus was hotly debated for nearly 300 years after his death with fatal consequences for the losers.

The New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek .. and as it so happens I do have access to that Bible actually. In fact I was first introduced to it at age 5 by my Greek mother.

You shouldn't assume too much about people you don't know.

You and your mother speak ancient Greek?

No original manuscripts exist (of course). All we have are transcriptions written by monks and others who may or may not have had a scholarly grasp of Aramaic or Greek (particularly when Latin became the lingua franca of the Roman Empire).

After Constantine, Christianity became a political arm of the emperor.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #192 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:41am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:39am:

In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.

I don't think you understand the text I've referenced at all to be quite honest.

Why?? You keep ignoring the point of the text .. as well as its relevance to this topic.

Was he? Or were the Pauline-affected writers of the Gospel making a statement about the subservience of Judaic Law with regard to Roman Law?

As you well know (and insist on ignoring) .. the point of the passage is that Jesus confounded the pathetic and hypocritical religious leaders of the day. The very same hypocrites who attempted to use this woman as a trap hoping to trick Jesus. The Romans didn't permit the Jews to carry out their own executions, so if He had ordered her stoned they would have reported Him to the Romans; if He had said she should not be stoned, they would accuse Him of breaking Moses' law.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #193 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:52am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:47am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:24am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:17am:

It is true that many players have attempted to tamper with the Bible over the years. That is all that's really happened though.

These 'players' were religious scholars and Church leaders of their day... As were many of the originators of the texts.

As you've never read an original manuscript, nor, I suspect, are you aware that significant changes have occurred over the centuries, you're not in a position to know whether the current versions are a true and accurate expression of the original biblical texts (which they are not) nor do you seem to be aware that the legacy of Jesus was hotly debated for nearly 300 years after his death with fatal consequences for the losers.

The New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek .. and as it so happens I do have access to that Bible actually. In fact I was first introduced to it at age 5 by my Greek mother.

You shouldn't assume too much about people you don't know.

You and your mother speak ancient Greek?

No original manuscripts exist (of course). All we have are transcriptions written by monks and others who may or may not have had a scholarly grasp of Aramaic or Greek (particularly when Latin became the lingua franca of the Roman Empire).

Who mentioned ancient Greek?

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #194 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:54am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 2:50am:

It was the pathetic and hypocritical religious leaders of the day that Jesus confounded in this passage. The very same hypocrties who attempted to use this woman as a trap hoping to trick Jesus. The Romans didn't permit the Jews to carry out their own executions, so if He had ordered her stoned they would have reported Him to the Romans; if He had said she should not be stoned, they would accuse Him of breaking Moses' law.

The Jews were most definitely allowed to carry out their own executions with regard to Judaic laws the Romans allowed to stand (for which the punishment was death).

Adultery was less of a crime under Roman law than Judaic law, so all the writers were trying to put across, was that Roman law was less severe than Judaic law and therefore more 'worthy' of obedience.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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