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Is Religion compatible with Evolution? (Read 44889 times)
freediver
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #210 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 8:23am
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:11pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:06pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:01pm:
evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_%28philosophy_of_science%29

In particular .. read this section:

Concepts that are considered constructs .. include .. scientific hypotheses and theories (e.g., evolutionary theory, gravitational theory), as well as classifications (e.g. in biological taxonomy) are also conceptual entities considered to be constructs.


So how does the theory of God factor into that definition  ??

The evolutionary process is not man made. The description and naming of it is man made but the process is observable by anything or anyone.


I posted a response here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1313274155
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #211 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 8:27am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 2:28am:
Perhaps this will help illustrate my point a tad further.

John Chapter 8

VERSE 3- 5: - "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"

VERSE 7 - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."


In short .. Jesus was making a statement about THEM .. ie the religious leaders of the time.

Seems Jesus wasn't all too thrilled with Religion either.



Then a little old lady rushed forwards and picked up a stone, and Jesus spake unto her saying - "Mum, MUM PUt it down, not you mum, MUM STOP IT!
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Bobby.
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #212 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 8:52am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 1:41am:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 1:29am:
Carl Sagan
Quote:
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.


You've quoted a scientist who was also a drug addict and an agnostic.

Many thanks Bobby.

Not sure what else I can say to you right now.


I just found out that he sometimes smoked pot.
He wasn't a drug addict.
Who cares?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan
Quote:
Carl Edward Sagan (English pronunciation: /ˈseɪɡən/ ) (November 9, 1934 – December 20, 1996) was an American astronomer , astrophysicist , cosmologist , author, science popularizer , and science communicator  in the space  and natural sciences . During his lifetime, he published more than 600 scientific papers and popular articles and was author, co-author, or editor of more than 20 books. In his works, he advocated skeptical inquiry  and the scientific method . He pioneered exobiology  and promoted the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) .

Sagan became world-famous for his popular science  books and for the award-winning 1980 television series Cosmos: A Personal Voyage , which he narrated and co-wrote.[2]  A book  to accompany the program was also published. Sagan also wrote the novel Contact , the basis for the 1997 film of the same name .

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #213 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:02am
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:39pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:35pm:
Last Nail??? You've gone all quiet on me now. Any more questions about dinosaurs?

It's good to see that you're thinking about things.


No I haven't.

What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??





lastnail,

Making more 'scientific' assumptions, again i see.




A scientific process [i.e. proving some hypothesis by examining and evaluating all of the available evidence] demands intellectual honesty and rigour and a willingness to examine every piece of evidence which may be related to a subject/issue.

People who straight-out, refuse to examine [some of the] evidence, because they know that that [some particular] evidence may lead to a conclusion which they do not wish to embrace, are not engaging in the 'scientific' process.

Science [the scientific process] today, has been corrupted by some people in our culture.

Some people, today, are [clearly] using 'something' which they call 'science', as an intellectual tool [as a weapon?] to defend a belief system - their own.

It is clear that some people, are only willing to engage in the 'scientific process' when very particular parts of the evidence agrees with their own preconceived notions, about what is clearly 'obvious'.

And it is clear that some people, will discard conclusions, refuse to entertain conclusions [based on very particular parts of the available evidence], which do not agree with their own preconceived notions, about what is clearly 'obvious'.

That, is not science.

Science, is about truth.

Science, is about not discarding truth, science is about facing and confronting truth.




lastnail asks....
"Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible ??"
"Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible ??"
"Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible ??"


Proverbs 14:16
A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.





Listen up people....
Obviously, dinosaurs are NOT described in the bible.


Q.
How do we know this ???

A.
Because lastnail is a Bible expert !
And i'm sure that we can all assume, that lastnail has read the Bible, many, many times.
Else how would lastnail know, that dinosaurs are not described in the bible ???
/sarc off






+++



"What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??"





Dinosaurs were probably hunted and made extinct by mankind.
e.g.
Where are sabre tooth tigers, and mammoths [and probably many other extinct species], today ???

Dead.



And, by the way, dinosaurs are described in the Bible.

But they are not called 'dinosaurs', in the Bible.





+++

Job 40:15
Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16  Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17  He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18  His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.


He [dinosaurs] had a tail, like a tree [trunk] ?



Are there any creatures alive today that have a 'tail like a cedar [i.e. a tree trunk]'?



"....his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly."


...

T-rex was clearly a meat eater, but perhaps there were other dinosaurs that, "eateth grass as an ox.", which had large 'loins' [hindquarters] ???






+++



Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;.....

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.



...




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« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:08am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #214 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:17am
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:44pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:38pm:
That's just your opinion and you're entitled to it Bobby. I happen to disagree with it. And I still respect you as a scientist even though many other scientists would also disagree with you.


So do you believe as the bible describes that the Universe is only 6000 years old and the earth is the center of the Universe ??


Thought I'd jump in (only just found this thread)..

The bible doesn't actually define the 'age' of Earth....that was 'worked out' by James Ussher, an Archbisop in the Curch of Ireland, in 1650.

He calculated backwards using dates in the OT, and came up with a creation date of October 23 4004 BC..
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #215 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:18am
 
Hi Lisa,
You still need to answer Nail's question:

Quote:
Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible



It's a simple question but it shows that your bible is severely lacking in any credibility.
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #216 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:19am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 6:26pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 6:08pm:
As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.



muso wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 9:38am:
Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.


Yep ..


This idea was suggested by another on another forum...

The most fascinating thing about the Cambrian explosion is the evolution of eyes, which science still cannot account for. Humans do not know from where or how eyes evolved. They simple turned up unannounced. Without eyes, there is no light, because we cannot see.

'And God said, "Let there be light,' and there was light.'

More realistically, that sentence and the creation myth in Genesis are referring to part of God's ancestry or incarnations or evolutions linking Him to El, the Canaanite god of Creation. Mythologically, Jehovah or El, were seeking to answer one of man's yearning quests which plagues all ages of our history, which plagues us even now. How and why are we here?

Evolution would suggest that it was in some parts a lucky draw. There was an almost infinite number of possible universes with this one. that we all know to be ours, being but one. We've discovered the scientific parameters in which life can exist are limited allowing very narrow extremes in climate, environment, biological and chemical development. One of the first things that evolved when life emerged from this extremely improbable universal possibility, was survival. Survival is very strong in life. It seems that only sophisticated yet irrational thoughts such as suicide idealization can override its influence on life.

For social beings survival means cooperation. Values and rules aid cooperation. So God belief not only seeks to answer the quests of how and why we are here, it also seeks to tell those of faith how to live cooperatively. God belief gives meaning. The harsh reality of our existence when considered without gods, that being survival, is disheartening for most. God belief resolves this by giving people a sense of something else beyond mere survival but which is attainable only after first living.

There are others however, who are not disheartened by the nature of life as Survival. Survival is not the only powerful product of life. It's rather extraordinary that through some seridipity of chance and determinism, the universe should be conscious at this epoc of its existence. That humans are conscious and self aware is that the universe is conscious and self aware, since humans are of the universe.
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #217 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:25am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 8:23am:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:11pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:06pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 11:01pm:
evolution is an observation of biological processes usually over long periods of time. It is not a man made construct !!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_%28philosophy_of_science%29

In particular .. read this section:

Concepts that are considered constructs .. include .. scientific hypotheses and theories (e.g., evolutionary theory, gravitational theory), as well as classifications (e.g. in biological taxonomy) are also conceptual entities considered to be constructs.


So how does the theory of God factor into that definition  ??

The evolutionary process is not man made. The description and naming of it is man made but the process is observable by anything or anyone.


I posted a response here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1313274155



And it was an excellent response too Freediver!

Here it is again:

freediver wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 8:22am:
Actually the process, to the extent it goes beyond natural selection, is not observable. Even natural selection is not directly observable. It is an interpretation, not an observation. Being able to distinguish observation and interpretation is key to understanding the philosophy of science.

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #218 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:40am
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 1:55am:

Please answer the question. Did dinosaurs become extinct before or after Noah ??






I don't know.

Was the book of Job written before, or after the flood lastnail ???

I ask you lastnail, because, you know so much about the contents of the bible.     Wink

/sarc off





So, what is the answer lastnail ???


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #219 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:42am
 
Sappho wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:19am:
The most fascinating thing about the Cambrian explosion is the evolution of eyes, which science still cannot account for. Humans do not know from where or how eyes evolved. They simple turned up unannounced. Without eyes, there is no light, because we cannot see.

Although the reason jellyfish can navigate around objects without 'eyes' suggests that some of their cells are light sensitive, enabling the animal to determine the existence of an object in its path and take some form of evasive action.
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #220 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:44am
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:18am:
Hi Lisa,
You still need to answer Nail's question:

Quote:
Why aren't dinosaurs described in your bible



It's a simple question but it shows that your bible is severely lacking in any credibility.


Lol bobby....it's a simple question, and there is a simple answer to match it..
The Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve etc, were the last things created, but the first things described in detail...Lots of other things aren't 'described' in the bible, except in general terms...i.e 'the beasts in the fields and the fishes in the seas'..
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #221 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:44am
 
Yadda wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:40am:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 1:55am:

Please answer the question. Did dinosaurs become extinct before or after Noah ??






I don't know.

Was the book of Job written before, or after the flood lastnail ???

I ask you lastnail, because, you know so much about the contents of the bible.     Wink

/sarc off





So, what is the answer lastnail ???



Naughty, naughty Lisa... Deflection is deception.  Wink

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #222 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:47am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:42am:
Sappho wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:19am:
The most fascinating thing about the Cambrian explosion is the evolution of eyes, which science still cannot account for. Humans do not know from where or how eyes evolved. They simple turned up unannounced. Without eyes, there is no light, because we cannot see.

Although the reason jellyfish can navigate around objects without 'eyes' suggests that some of their cells are light sensitive, enabling the animal to determine the existence of an object in its path and take some form of evasive action.


The argument refers to eyes as we know eyes to be now. Otherwise, for those jellyfish without eyes, how do you know that echolocation is not playing a roll?
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #223 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:49am
 
Sappho wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:47am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:42am:
Sappho wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:19am:
The most fascinating thing about the Cambrian explosion is the evolution of eyes, which science still cannot account for. Humans do not know from where or how eyes evolved. They simple turned up unannounced. Without eyes, there is no light, because we cannot see.

Although the reason jellyfish can navigate around objects without 'eyes' suggests that some of their cells are light sensitive, enabling the animal to determine the existence of an object in its path and take some form of evasive action.


The argument refers to eyes as we know eyes to be now. Otherwise, for those jellyfish without eyes, how do you know that echolocation is not playing a roll?

Probably because no cells with sonar capabilities have been discovered within jellyfish, but photo-sensitive cells apparently have been.
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #224 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:51am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 2:02am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 2:00am:
I do believe in the Bible though.



Why?






Let me answer that one.


Because believing in the Bible is so much more satisfying that believing in the changing vanity and the pride of men.




John 17:17
....thy word is truth.


Psalms 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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