Australian Politics Forum - Is Religion compatible with Evolution?

Sappho

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #285 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:05pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? Grin

LOL... that's all you got... Just insults and personal opinion backed up with personal belief most likely born of a... oh you don't know... it's just a feeling is all.

Helian is a good name for you... reminds me of Helium... very light weight.

Gee, didn't pick you as the bitchy type.

So far, you've dredged up apocryphal letters, well known to be written centuries after the time to which they refer... Thought you were better than that.

Do some reading there, girl... Or... maybe you can reconcile the, now almost universally acknowledged, contradictions and errors in the New Testament books.

Do some reading eh? Want to suggest a non-catholic text which references this apparently erroneous letter, or link it for that matter... if it's so well know it would be on the net too.

As to the bitchy remark... what do you expect when you start these silly flaming, deflecting games?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #286 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #287 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? Grin

LOL... that's all you got... Just insults and personal opinion backed up with personal belief most likely born of a... oh you don't know... it's just a feeling is all.

Helian is a good name for you... reminds me of Helium... very light weight.

Gee, didn't pick you as the bitchy type.

So far, you've dredged up apocryphal letters, well known to be written centuries after the time to which they refer... Thought you were better than that.

Do some reading there, girl... Or... maybe you can reconcile the, now almost universally acknowledged, contradictions and errors in the New Testament books.

Do some reading eh? Want to suggest a non-catholic text which references this apparently erroneous letter, or link it for that matter... if it's so well know it would be on the net too.

As to the bitchy remark... what do you expect when you start these silly flaming, deflecting games?

Come on now, Sapph... Chill out... It ain't like it's life or death.

Find a website of a widely respected biblical scholar (say, Eisenman, but there are others)... And you'll find out all you need to know about the myriad forgeries and interpolations that have occurred during the first 500 years of Christendom.

BTW the Catholic Church ain't all bad when it comes to the truth... They even accept the 'Donation of Constantine' was a forgery.

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Bobby.

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #288 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:21pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Thanks Helian - you see Gizmo - I was right! Tongue

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« Last Edit: Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:59pm by Bobby. »

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Sappho

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #289 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Find a website of a widely respected biblical scholar (say, Eisenman, but there are others)... And you'll find out all you need to know about the myriad forgeries and interpolations that have occurred during the first 500 years of Christendom.

Well, because you are so f u c king useless are providing supporting material for your claims, I am looking and so far without any success.

Nonetheless, in my search for the truth in your spurious claims, I happened upon this....

Quote:

John 7:53 to 8:11: One of the most famous forgeries* in the Bible is the well-known story of the woman observed in adultery. It was apparently written and inserted after John 7:52 by an unknown author, perhaps in the 5th century CE. This story is often referred to as an "orphan story" because it is a type of floating text which has appeared after John 7:36, John 7:52, John 21:25, and Luke 21:38 in various manuscripts. Some scholars believe that the story may have had its origins in oral traditions about Jesus.
It is a pity that the status of verses John 8:1-11 are not certain. If they were known to be a reliable description of Jesus' ministry, they would have given a clear indication of Jesus' stance on the death penalty.

What say you about this one Lisa?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #290 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:57pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Find a website of a widely respected biblical scholar (say, Eisenman, but there are others)... And you'll find out all you need to know about the myriad forgeries and interpolations that have occurred during the first 500 years of Christendom.

Well, because you are so f u c king useless are providing supporting material for your claims, I am looking and so far without any success.

Humblest apologies, all my sources are in the form of books I have gathered over the many years of my de-Catholicism

One I have suggested to you (all 1000 pages of it) was Eisenman's "James the Brother of Jesus". You can order it online.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #291 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 7:05pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

Quote:

John 7:53 to 8:11: One of the most famous forgeries* in the Bible is the well-known story of the woman observed in adultery. It was apparently written and inserted after John 7:52 by an unknown author, perhaps in the 5th century CE. This story is often referred to as an "orphan story" because it is a type of floating text which has appeared after John 7:36, John 7:52, John 21:25, and Luke 21:38 in various manuscripts. Some scholars believe that the story may have had its origins in oral traditions about Jesus.
It is a pity that the status of verses John 8:1-11 are not certain. If they were known to be a reliable description of Jesus' ministry, they would have given a clear indication of Jesus' stance on the death penalty.

What say you about this one Lisa?

Good work there Sapph... John 8 3:11 was quoted by Lisa as her self-declared coup de grâce. I did suggest to her it was an interpolation... But... well... y'know these Christians and their misguided faith in the veracity of Biblical texts. Wink

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Sappho

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #292 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 7:12pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Find a website of a widely respected biblical scholar (say, Eisenman, but there are others)... And you'll find out all you need to know about the myriad forgeries and interpolations that have occurred during the first 500 years of Christendom.

Well, because you are so f u c king useless are providing supporting material for your claims, I am looking and so far without any success.

Humblest apologies, all my sources are in the form of books I have gathered over the many years of my de-Catholicism

One I have suggested to you (all 1000 pages of it) was Eisenman's "James the Brother of Jesus". You can order it online.

From what I have found so far the main complaint about the ancient letters is that the dates do not coincide with the date of Christ's crucifixion. That's a pretty weak premise to work off since everyone knows that the date of the birth and death of Christ are contentious.

Interestingly, I have found no commentary on the forgery of King Herod's letter.

Now you say it is a well know forgery, but cannot even site a book or requote a passage to justify that claim. Not even your "James, brother of Jesus" makes reference to it.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #293 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 7:20pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 7:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:10pm:

Find a website of a widely respected biblical scholar (say, Eisenman, but there are others)... And you'll find out all you need to know about the myriad forgeries and interpolations that have occurred during the first 500 years of Christendom.

Well, because you are so f u c king useless are providing supporting material for your claims, I am looking and so far without any success.

Humblest apologies, all my sources are in the form of books I have gathered over the many years of my de-Catholicism

One I have suggested to you (all 1000 pages of it) was Eisenman's "James the Brother of Jesus". You can order it online.

From what I have found so far the main complaint about the ancient letters is that the dates do not coincide with the date of Christ's crucifixion. That's a pretty weak premise to work off since everyone knows that the date of the birth and death of Christ are contentious.

Interestingly, I have found no commentary on the forgery of King Herod's letter.

Now you say it is a well know forgery, but cannot even site a book or requote a passage to justify that claim. Not even your "James, brother of Jesus" makes reference to it.

Don't worry, I'm rifling even as you wrote.

I can tell you that not one document claimed to have been written from the birth of Jesus until his death has ever been proved authentic, nor any 'letters' from Antipas or Pilate RE Jesus. Not a single one.

His crucifixion must have almost literally been a non-event... If it happened at all, he was one in a long line of non-Roman citizen nobodies who were executed for some form of insurrection.

Biblical scholars suggest it was due to the ruckus he caused in the Temple that triggered his arrest by Roman (not Jewish) authorities and was summarily executed... And that would have been the end of his story, if not for the strange Messianic movement he belonged to and the bizarre conversion of a well-bred, well connected, well related, zealous, scholarly and charismatic Roman citizen - Saul of Tarsus.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #294 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:26pm

More info on Antipas and Pilate RE Christianity...

By the time the first Christian texts were written (Acts circa late 50s CE), both Pilate and Antipas had both been exiled (both in the mid to late 30s CE) and by the 40s CE, they were both dead, so it is unlikely they ever knew of the central role their legacy was to play in the Christian psychodrama.

Christians in Rome did not attract much negative attention until the reign of Claudius. Their reputation descended rapidly (and were not distinguished from Jews at the time) and was at an all time low during the reign of Nero (who ultimately accused them of attempting to destroy Rome by fire).

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Sappho Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1406 Gender:	Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution? Reply #295 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery. You are checking the index aren't you? Such a thing would be found in the index.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #296 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Haven't found it yet... Interesting though that Christianity was a minuscule movement even after the deaths of both Pilate and Antipas.

What possible reasons would Antipas have to write such an impassioned and brazen letter to Tiberius about Jesus when Antipas was dead by circa 40 CE ! Years before the first Christian texts appeared even mentioning his name!

Even Josephus only wrote only two small passages referring to Jesus (and written after the Jewish Revolt after 80CE), most of which has been demonstrated to be later Christian interpolations. He had more to say about James.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #297 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:49pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:03pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:38pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

And what is the reason???

The reason? New Testament writers claim that Jesus was the Messiah.
It was of paramount importance to the authors of the Jesus birth story that he had to be born in Bethlehem - The City of David, which is why all the effort in the NT nativity stories to make sure he was born there.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

Any way you look at it...it's pretty specious to 'worry' about the birth location...
I'm sorry, but how does a religious reference to a birth location affect historical facts???

[highlight]It's a worry to those ancient Pauline writers who had it in their heads that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.[/highlight]gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

he may not have done the miracles or been the 'son of god'...but he most likely DID life...

Yes, I agree... He probably existed as an historical figure. (I have said so 2 or 3 times above).

1) The reason? New Testament writers claim that Jesus was the Messiah.
Yeah but that's a 'political' idea...and not really 'true'

2) [highlight]It's a worry to those ancient Pauline writers who had it in their heads that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem.[/highlight]
And again...it's 'political, not historical...

3) The City of David, which is why all the effort in the NT nativity stories to make sure he was born there.

Well the City of David is (possibly) important to the whole Jesus story...since Jesus WAS(apparently), the Scion of the House of David and therefore the Wearer of the Crown of Israel...

"Yes, I agree... He probably existed as an historical figure. (I have said so 2 or 3 times above)."
Which means that he wasn't the 'Son of God'...but 'may' have been a political opponent of the Roman Regime...

1. Yes, it was political, but was transmogrified into a spiritual status by Pauline Christians

2. Yes, the new Christian movement inherited the idea of Messianism from its direct predecessor Messianic Judaism, but it was considered a spiritual role by Pauline Christians.

3. But as the Gospel of Matthew tells us, Jesus is related to David via Joseph (not Mary), thereby putting paid to his 'seed of David' claim through descent from his father.

4. He may have been an unsuccessful political opponent of Rome who paid for his crime by the harshest known Roman punishment reserved for the worst criminals and insurrectionists - Crucifixion.

1)Yes, that's the point
2)Yes, that's the point
3)Yes that's the point
4)Yes, that's the point

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #298 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:50pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Thanks Helian - you see Gizmo - I was right! Tongue

' I was right!'...NO you weren't...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Bobby.

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #299 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:50pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Thanks Helian - you see Gizmo - I was right! Tongue

Gizmo -
I am still waiting for your humble - on your knees - apology.

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