Australian Politics Forum - Is Religion compatible with Evolution?

gizmo_2655

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #300 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:51pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 6:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:55pm:

Helian,
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

There are some, but none from the time of Jesus. All were written about the movement initiated by Paul, Christianity. Any reference to Jesus was based on accounts new converts suggested were true.

Thanks Helian - you see Gizmo - I was right! Tongue

[highlight]Gizmo -
I am still waiting for your humble - on your knees - apology.[/highlight]

Read UP...

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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution? Reply #301 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:51pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:49pm: 1)Yes, that's the point 2)Yes, that's the point 3)Yes that's the point 4)Yes, that's the point Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you 6 pages ago... Have another read!
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #302 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:51pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:49pm:

1)Yes, that's the point
2)Yes, that's the point
3)Yes that's the point
4)Yes, that's the point

Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you 6 pages ago... Have another read!

Umm can you list a postnumber, or a date/time??...It's a little to hard to 'find' the post, 6 pages ago...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Sappho

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #303 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Haven't found it yet... Interesting though that Christianity was a minuscule movement even after the deaths of both Pilate and Antipas.

What possible reasons would Antipas have to write such an impassioned and brazen letter to Tiberius about Jesus when Antipas was dead by circa 40 CE ! Years before the first Christian texts appeared even mentioning his name!

Caius was an enemy of Herod and suspected him of acting against Rome... accused him even... and on more than one occasion. It was Caius who was instrumental in having Herod exiled.

In such a climate, Herod's motives would be at question and he would know it well, so there was a need to carefully and clearly extricate himself from rumour and accusation.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #304 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:21pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Haven't found it yet... Interesting though that Christianity was a minuscule movement even after the deaths of both Pilate and Antipas.

What possible reasons would Antipas have to write such an impassioned and brazen letter to Tiberius about Jesus when Antipas was dead by circa 40 CE ! Years before the first Christian texts appeared even mentioning his name!

Caius was an enemy of Herod and suspected him of acting against Rome... accused him even... and on more than one occasion. It was Caius who was instrumental in having Herod exiled.

In such a climate, Herod's motives would be at question and he would know it well, so there was a need to carefully and clearly extricate himself from rumour and accusation.

Against a religion that virtually did not exist? He had more to answer for over his execution of John the Baptist.

BTW Eisenman cannot find evidence (outside Christian texts) that Jesus was even associated with John. While John and James attract the attention of writers of the time, Jesus attracts no comment whatsoever.

Yes, Antipas fell out with Caligula... Encouraged by his Antipas's nephew.

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Sappho

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #305 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:30pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Haven't found it yet... Interesting though that Christianity was a minuscule movement even after the deaths of both Pilate and Antipas.

What possible reasons would Antipas have to write such an impassioned and brazen letter to Tiberius about Jesus when Antipas was dead by circa 40 CE ! Years before the first Christian texts appeared even mentioning his name!

Caius was an enemy of Herod and suspected him of acting against Rome... accused him even... and on more than one occasion. It was Caius who was instrumental in having Herod exiled.

In such a climate, Herod's motives would be at question and he would know it well, so there was a need to carefully and clearly extricate himself from rumour and accusation.

Against a religion that virtually did not exist? He had more to answer for over his execution of John the Baptist.

BTW Eisenman cannot find evidence (outside Christian texts) that Jesus was even associated with John. While John and James attract the attention of writers of the time, Jesus attracts no comment whatsoever.

Yes, Antipas fell out with Caligula... Encouraged by his Antipas's nephew.

The letter which I reference also justifies his actions concerning John the Baptist. And Herod is not necessarily defending himself against a religion that did not exist, he is defending his actions against the Laws of Rome as they applied to the Jesus crucifixion.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #306 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:38pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Haven't found it yet... Interesting though that Christianity was a minuscule movement even after the deaths of both Pilate and Antipas.

What possible reasons would Antipas have to write such an impassioned and brazen letter to Tiberius about Jesus when Antipas was dead by circa 40 CE ! Years before the first Christian texts appeared even mentioning his name!

Caius was an enemy of Herod and suspected him of acting against Rome... accused him even... and on more than one occasion. It was Caius who was instrumental in having Herod exiled.

In such a climate, Herod's motives would be at question and he would know it well, so there was a need to carefully and clearly extricate himself from rumour and accusation.

Against a religion that virtually did not exist? He had more to answer for over his execution of John the Baptist.

BTW Eisenman cannot find evidence (outside Christian texts) that Jesus was even associated with John. While John and James attract the attention of writers of the time, Jesus attracts no comment whatsoever.

Yes, Antipas fell out with Caligula... Encouraged by his Antipas's nephew.

The letter which I reference also justifies his actions concerning John the Baptist. And Herod is not necessarily defending himself against a religion that did not exist, he is defending his actions against the Laws of Rome as they applied to the Jesus crucifixion.

Firstly the 'letter' also refers to 'deaths of the innocents' under Herod the Great which did not arise in the Christian story until well after Antipas' death. Nearly all religious scholars will agree that the 'deaths of the innocents' did not occur.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #307 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:48pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:08pm:

Lisa,
Quote:

Happy reading. Catch you all .. whenever.

Don't go - now I'll be forced to read through 16 pages
to find your answer to Nail's question. Cry

Bobby .. I'm back (but only for a little while).

I'm away on business atm and as such I'm pretty busy.

Now .. have you had a chance to read this topic yet?

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Sappho

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #308 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:50pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:38pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:21pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:15pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 8:36pm:

More than one hour it has taken you to drag that up, yet still not a word on Herod's letter being a forgery.

Haven't found it yet... Interesting though that Christianity was a minuscule movement even after the deaths of both Pilate and Antipas.

What possible reasons would Antipas have to write such an impassioned and brazen letter to Tiberius about Jesus when Antipas was dead by circa 40 CE ! Years before the first Christian texts appeared even mentioning his name!

Caius was an enemy of Herod and suspected him of acting against Rome... accused him even... and on more than one occasion. It was Caius who was instrumental in having Herod exiled.

In such a climate, Herod's motives would be at question and he would know it well, so there was a need to carefully and clearly extricate himself from rumour and accusation.

Against a religion that virtually did not exist? He had more to answer for over his execution of John the Baptist.

BTW Eisenman cannot find evidence (outside Christian texts) that Jesus was even associated with John. While John and James attract the attention of writers of the time, Jesus attracts no comment whatsoever.

Yes, Antipas fell out with Caligula... Encouraged by his Antipas's nephew.

The letter which I reference also justifies his actions concerning John the Baptist. And Herod is not necessarily defending himself against a religion that did not exist, he is defending his actions against the Laws of Rome as they applied to the Jesus crucifixion.

Firstly the 'letter' also refers to 'deaths of the innocents' under Herod the Great which did not arise in the Christian story until well after Antipas' death. Nearly all religious scholars will agree that the 'deaths of the innocents' did not occur.

Good point. However, that many, and not most scholars will argue, they believe it did not occur because it is not mentioned by Josephus in his histories. Nonetheless, there are others who argue that the death of a few innocents in a small Jewish village is not the kind of history that Josephus was interested in.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #309 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:52pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 1:04pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

You should now know that the point of the passage was that Jesus was able to skillfully highlight the hypocrisy of RELIGION and that is what I have previously stated to you in this topic.

And what I'm saying to you is that the point to the text is more easily explained by the gospel writers' desire to subjugate Judaic law by Roman Law. The text (i.e. Jesus writing in the sand) was a later interpolation to lead a naive reader to interpret that perhaps Jesus was writing the sins of the 'scribes and Pharisees' (although the text does not reveal what was written in the sand).

What I asked of you (which you refuse to acknowledge) is would you will the same (absolution without punishment) for 21st century criminals?

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

The fact that the Bible supports what I have recurringly stated

My argument was that it more closely supports the subjugation of Judaic law by Roman law.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

Incidentally .. I care little for your disclosure this morning that you've had a strict Roman Catholic religious upbringing Helian.

Are you rejecting the fact that there are countless millions of people who actually have a greater cultural and academic understanding of Biblical texts than you?

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

Even more importantly .. Jesus doesn't care for it either.

Are you claiming to know the mind of god (via the mind of Jesus) as well ?

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

In fact .. as you may have noted .. Jesus doesn't care much for religion at all. Jesus had a disdain for religion and its hypocrisy and the Bible has many portions which reveal this.

No, its the New Testament writers who imply that claim. That wasn't the claim of members of the Jerusalem Council which pre-dates Christianity as the authority of Jesus' legacy.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

The bottom line?? You have issues .. but they are not with me .. they are with the Bible. It is the Bible which powerfully refuted, undermined and confounded your arguments last night Helian .. all I did was post the relevant verses from the Bible.

How can the bible refute my claims, when it is biblical texts I am using? (i.e. Jewish leaders' right to pass the sentence of execution, which you appear to have not been aware of, no doubt using only Jesus' trial as your source of information... Ignoring the execution of John the Baptist by Tetrarch Herod Antipas - as stated in biblical texts).

Nothing in the Bible supports your claims or ideas. And that is why I keep re iterating that your problem is not with me .. but with the Bible itself.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #310 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:54pm

Also, Antipas's issue with John the Baptist was both his popularity with Galileans and his vocal condemnation of Antipas's divorce from his first wife and his second marriage to his brother's wife. This prompted Antipas's Father-in-law to wage a successful war against Antipas.

Nothing to do with religion...

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #311 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:58pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? Grin

LOL... that's all you got... Just insults and personal opinion backed up with personal belief most likely born of a... oh you don't know... it's just a feeling is all.

Helian is a good name for you... reminds me of Helium... very light weight.

I was about to post something a little more descriptive. But your post pretty much sums things up rather well Sappho.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #312 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:58pm

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:50pm:

Good point. However, that many, and not most scholars will argue, they believe it did not occur because it is not mentioned by Josephus in his histories. Nonetheless, there are others who argue that the death of a few innocents in a small Jewish village is not the kind of history that Josephus was interested in.

Yet not a single writer (other than Christian writers) mention it at all. And when it is mentioned, it is decades after the timeline within which it supposedly took place... Such an outrage and not a word of condemnation... Antipas marries his brother's wife and it starts a war! Herod murders babies en-masse and no reference to it is ever made... Yet every other atrocity Herod committed, including within his own family, is well documented.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #313 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:00pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 9:58pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:46pm:

And the The Babylonian Talmud?

Sorry Helian, there are too many source documents which suggest that Jesus was real and a charlatan to boot.

Documents written hundreds of years after the events of which they claim to bear witness?

Are you Lisa for the day? Grin

LOL... that's all you got... Just insults and personal opinion backed up with personal belief most likely born of a... oh you don't know... it's just a feeling is all.

Helian is a good name for you... reminds me of Helium... very light weight.

I was about to post something a little more descriptive. But your post pretty much sums things up rather well Sappho.

So, how are you going with John 8 1:11 there Lisa?

How about the Jewish right to execution? Any thoughts?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #314 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:01pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Just for the record :

I believe Jesus probably existed as an historical figure.

I believe he was not born in Bethlehem, so could not have fulfilled the requirements of Scripture for Messiahship.

I do not believe he considered himself the Messiah (or the 'Son of God').

I believe the Jesus story became the story of 'Christ' (Messiah) via Pauline doctrine.

I believe Jesus was virtually unknown in Palestine during his lifetime.

The Holy Bible begs to differ with your beliefs.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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