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Is Religion compatible with Evolution? (Read 44828 times)
Sappho
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #330 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 11:16pm
 
Sappho wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:19am:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 6:26pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 6:08pm:
As regards religion and evolution .. both are compatible in the sense that they are man made constructs.


muso wrote on Aug 11th, 2011 at 9:38am:
Religion is probably a consequence of evolution.


Yep ..


This idea was suggested by another on another forum...

The most fascinating thing about the Cambrian explosion is the evolution of eyes, which science still cannot account for. Humans do not know from where or how eyes evolved. They simple turned up unannounced. Without eyes, there is no light, because we cannot see.

'And God said, "Let there be light,' and there was light.'

More realistically, that sentence and the creation myth in Genesis are referring to part of God's ancestry or incarnations or evolutions linking Him to El, the Canaanite god of Creation. Mythologically, Jehovah or El, were seeking to answer one of man's yearning quests which plagues all ages of our history, which plagues us even now. How and why are we here?

Evolution would suggest that it was in some parts a lucky draw. There was an almost infinite number of possible universes with this one. that we all know to be ours, being but one. We've discovered the scientific parameters in which life can exist are limited allowing very narrow extremes in climate, environment, biological and chemical development. One of the first things that evolved when life emerged from this extremely improbable universal possibility, was survival. Survival is very strong in life. It seems that only sophisticated yet irrational thoughts such as suicide idealization can override its influence on life.

For social beings survival means cooperation. Values and rules aid cooperation. So God belief not only seeks to answer the quests of how and why we are here, it also seeks to tell those of faith how to live cooperatively. God belief gives meaning. The harsh reality of our existence when considered without gods, that being survival, is disheartening for most. God belief resolves this by giving people a sense of something else beyond mere survival but which is attainable only after first living.

There are others however, who are not disheartened by the nature of life as Survival. Survival is not the only powerful product of life. It's rather extraordinary that through some seridipity of chance and determinism, the universe should be conscious at this epoc of its existence. That humans are conscious and self aware is that the universe is conscious and self aware, since humans are of the universe.  


We know know that the biblical quote from Lisa is a well known forgery... that the letter I quoted from King Herod is an extraordinary forgery... that Lisa refuses to explore the idea of dinosaurs in biblical times and that Nail, Bobby and Helian revel in the teasing of Lisa.

What's say we try and get back on topic? Radical concept I know, but it may prove interesting.
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Sir lastnail
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #331 - Aug 14th, 2011 at 11:40pm
 
Aussie wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 11:08pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:50pm:
bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time Wink


Not before his time at all.  They were late for the boat, is all.

Cheesy

See, easy.


Or maybe the doors on the boat weren't big enough for the dinosaurs to fit through so they got left behind Cheesy LOL
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Frances
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #332 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:44am
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 5:55pm:
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian, wrote:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
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Sir lastnail
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #333 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 1:09am
 
Frances wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:44am:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 5:55pm:
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian, wrote:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."


It's a forgery

Quote:
Four historians are typically referenced to justify Jesus’s existence: Pliny the younger, Suetonius, Tacitus are the first three. Each one of their entries consists of only a few sentences at best and only refer to “Christus” or the Christ, which in fact is not name but a title. It means the “Anointed one.” The fourth source is Josephus, and this source has been proven to be a forgery for hundreds of years. Sadly, it is still cited as truth.


Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?


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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #334 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 7:22am
 
Frances wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:44am:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 5:55pm:
As far as I know there are no Roman records of the existence of Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian, wrote:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

The above is not quite what we have of Josephus's first of only 2 small references to Jesus, written around 90 CE and based on what was told to him by his contemporaries. The highlighted sentences are what nearly all religious historians agree are later Christian interpolations into the text.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

So all historians agree that the following is the most Josephus wrote about Jesus :

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.


Bearing in mind that Josephus was just reporting what was received wisdom by 90CE and did not bother to investigate further, which indicates how irrelevant Christianity was even by 90CE.

Jesus was clearly a largely unheard of and irrelevant historical figure during the 1st century CE. Josephus's reference to him barely confirms that he existed at all.

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Yadda
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #335 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 9:13am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 4:54pm:
Just for the record :

#1,
I believe Jesus probably existed as an historical figure.

#2,
I believe he was not born in Bethlehem, so could not have fulfilled the requirements of Scripture for Messiahship.

#3,
I do not believe he considered himself the Messiah (or the 'Son of God').

#4,
I believe the Jesus story became the story of 'Christ' (Messiah) via Pauline doctrine.

#5,
I believe Jesus was virtually unknown in Palestine during his lifetime.





So your position is the the Gospel(s) account of Jesus, and of his life, was [in your opinion] largely all a fabrication and untrue ?

Point 3, especially, is in conflict with the Gospel(s) account of what Jesus [supposedly] stated about himself.

i.e.
The Gospel(s) account clearly shows that Jesus did claim to be the Jewish Messiah, and be divine.

But of course, if the Gospel(s) account of Jesus life, was largely all a fabrication and untrue, then Jesus would not have been the Jewish Messiah.

And if your assertion, point 2, is correct, then Jesus himself would must likely have been in on the deception too ???






So, for any individual, it all hinges upon whether you can believe that the Gospel(s) and NT account of Jesus, and of his life, was true.





1 Corinthians 15:1
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.



Luke 24:13
And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14  And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15  And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16  But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17  And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18  And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19  And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20  And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21  But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22  Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23  And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24  And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25  Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26  Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28  And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29  But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30  And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31  And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.



Yes, it is an unbelievable account isn't it.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #336 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 9:42am
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 11:02pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:50pm:
bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time Wink



Hi Nail,
We still can't get answers for simple questions like that.
Why won't the Bible believers just become rational for 1 minute
& accept that such a simple statement pulls their whole story apart?








"What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??"


"Is Religion compatible with Evolution?"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/213#213


"Is Religion compatible with Evolution?"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/218#218


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #337 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 9:58am
 
...
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...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
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Frances
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #338 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:28pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 7:22am:
Bearing in mind that Josephus was just reporting what was received wisdom by 90CE and did not bother to investigate further, which indicates how irrelevant Christianity was even by 90CE.

Jesus was clearly a largely unheard of and irrelevant historical figure during the 1st century CE. Josephus's reference to him barely confirms that he existed at all.


Given that the Romans were persecuting the Christians in an effort to eliminate the religion altogether, it is unlikely that there would be many commentators writing about them.  Certainly, there are numerous writings mentioning Jesus, but the problem with using most of them as evidence is that they were practically all written by Christians.  From an objective point of view, you have to look for something that is written by someone who was not a follower of Christ

From The Talmud
Quote:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged.  For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.  Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.  But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover



Pliny the Younger (governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor) (61 AD – ca. 112 AD)
Quote:
They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.



Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117) - Annals 15.44
Quote:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.


Quote:
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations.
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Sir lastnail
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #339 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:45pm
 
Yadda wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 9:42am:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 11:02pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 14th, 2011 at 10:50pm:
bump for Lisa

when exactly did the dinosaurs become extinct and why ??

was it before or after Noah's time Wink



Hi Nail,
We still can't get answers for simple questions like that.
Why won't the Bible believers just become rational for 1 minute
& accept that such a simple statement pulls their whole story apart?








"What happened to the dinosaurs and why aren't they described in your bible ??"


"Is Religion compatible with Evolution?"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/213#213


"Is Religion compatible with Evolution?"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1312987029/218#218




that's not an answer. that's just your twisted opinion based on zero evidence.
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Sir lastnail
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #340 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:47pm
 
Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?
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Bobby.
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #341 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:49pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:47pm:
Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?



Because he died like everyone else.
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #342 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 1:01pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:47pm:

Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?






2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


The world says;

Jesus is dead.
God is a myth.
The theory of evolution, is a scientific fact.




"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Sir lastnail
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #343 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 1:09pm
 
Yadda wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 1:01pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:47pm:

Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?






2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


The world says;

Jesus is dead.
God is a myth.
The theory of evolution, is a scientific fact.




"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."






And the theory of God is backed up by what facts and evidence ??
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #344 - Aug 15th, 2011 at 2:24pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:49pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 15th, 2011 at 12:47pm:
Why doesn't Jesus appear now when he appeared to so many after his crucifixion ?



Because he died like everyone else.


That's pretty much it Bobby....
IF he had been a supernatural entity (Son of the Creator, etc)...he really wouldn't have BEEN cruxified...
As a friend of mine used to say, years ago.....how many REAL witches were burned at the stake, during the Persecution of Witches in the Middle Ages????.....answer: none...because it's so hard for frogs to light matches....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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