Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?

helian said....

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 15^th, 2011 at 8:32pm:



helian,

Of course i'm sure that you are aware that Jesus role as Jewish Messiah, that he, Jesus, should appear as an expected military / political figure, is contradicted [supposedly, by Jesus himself] in the NT.

"....And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
....Concerning Jesus of Nazareth,....
....we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel:...
....Then he [Jesus] said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he [Jesus] expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself....."

Luke 24:13-31



But lets explore the apparent contradictory aspects of the nature and role of the Jewish Messiah.
What was the traditional [expected] function of the Jewish Messiah ?
Wasn't the Messiahs' traditional redemptive function to,
1/ cleanse [and judge] his own people, and to,
2/ then destroy their [and God's] enemies ?

But it is clear that there was a distinct difference....between the 'vision' which Jesus presented to the Jewish nation, and the expectation which the Jewish people/nation had [and still have!] of their Messiah.
The Jewish people/nation had an expectation, that the Jewish Messiah would appear as a powerful [redeeming] military / political figure.
But the NT man Jesus came as a spiritual healer, and he personally presented his purpose, as being, to call both the Jewish nation, and Jewish individuals, to spiritual repentance.

Luke 5:32
I came....to call....sinners to repentance.

Matthew 15:24
.....I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And hadn't the [national] redemptive process [promised by their God] always been portrayed [in their scripture] as being, a two part process ?
First and foremost, the need for the atonement [ceremonial 'cleansing'] of the 'holy' people/nation ???
And then [subsequent to their repentance and atonement, 'cleansing'], their redemption [forgiveness] by their God ?

But what Jesus encountered, among the political / religious leaders of the Jewish nation, was a deep seated rejection of his 'vision' of national healing, through repentance.





Think about the history of Jewish people;
Hadn't the ancient Hebrew/Judaic religious culture always been steeped in a [at that time] centuries old understanding, of a national and individual need [as a holy people, as servants of their God], for an atonement for sin ???
Which had always been fulfilled 'in type', within the performance of Judaic religious ceremonies involving animal sacrifice ?
Where the 'guilt' of the people, was placed upon the [innocent] animal being sacrificed ?
A role which it could be argued, Jesus did fulfil.
Jesus died, as an innocent man, executed by the Roman authority, on behalf of his guilty, and 'unrepentant' accusers, the political elite of his day.

And is the self-sacrifice 'thing' of Jesus, so 'weird', as many would claim ???

Don't we see the act of self-sacrifice commonly practised in men, and also in nature [among animals], to protect [to 'redeem'] something loved ???



+++

Isaiah 51:5
My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.

Jeremiah 8:5
Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
6  I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
7  Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

No, he was not the messiah, he was justa naughty boy.

Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:36am:



And the blood of the atonement sacrifice was sprinkled upon the people...

Exodus 24:6
And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7  And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8  And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.



Jesus, was the atonement sacrifice.

Yadda wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:57am:


Of course the Bible will "prove" the story it was edited to tell.

Mind you, this doesn't mean that the Pauline messiah myth ISN'T wrong. But without the Bible, how can you ever verify this?

Yes, intuition, divine revelation, all that. But this never happens to Buddhists, or Muslims, or Jews. Just Christians. Why?

Because they've been taught the Bible.

Just as there are many rooms in my Father's house, there are many gospels NOT in the Bible.

See the Nag Hamadi texts.

Grey wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:27am:


Darn it Grey....you beat me to it....

Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:36am:

Welease Wodger.