Australian Politics Forum - Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?

Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21815 A cat with a view	Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ? Reply #15 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 7:34am NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 12:21am: Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 11:36am: Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Welease Wodger. Who is Roger ? And why should he be released ???
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #16 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 8:15am

Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 12:06pm:

Mind you, this doesn't mean that the Pauline messiah myth ISN'T wrong. But without the Bible, how can you ever verify this?

But by using the term 'myth' you'd be suggesting that the story does not necessarily require adherence to any historical truth and need not appeal to the rational mind but to the emotional 'heart'.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96099
Gender: male

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #17 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 10:33am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 8:15am:

Karnal wrote on Aug 17^th, 2011 at 12:06pm:

Mind you, this doesn't mean that the Pauline messiah myth ISN'T wrong. But without the Bible, how can you ever verify this?

But by using the term 'myth' you'd be suggesting that the story does not necessarily require adherence to any historical truth and need not appeal to the rational mind but to the emotional 'heart'.

By myth I mean a lineage of pagan sacrificial gods like Osiris, Dionysis, Attis and Mithras (myth?) - the thesis of Freke and Gandy in the Jesus Mysteries - a very good read.

Myths are stories where truth, the obsession of Christianity, lies within the text itself - not in a historical person or series of events. Within paganism, the "truth" of the object of prayer/devotion is not so important. Your devotion is.

So yes, Helian, you're spot on.

As theologians like CS lewis have argued, Christianity can't be proven rationally or historically. And why would you want to?

This only becomes the point if you're basing your professed superiority over other faiths on the "truth" of your own. It becomes a legal question - a question that is not based in faith or the teachings of Jesus, but narrow fundamentalist dogma.

Conservative Christian fundamentalists lament how modern spirituality has become a supermarket, how people flick from Buddhism to Scientology to Christianity, etc, and blend them all into a post-modern soup. The problem with this is that the "truth" gets lost - that hard truths get avoided, that people will just do whatever they think sounds nice.

Maybe. But this is how Paul created Christianity, and it's how knowledge has travelled around the globe since the beginning of language, travel and trade.

Christian fundamentalists have no answers to the question of truth. All they can ever really say is that they feel Jesus in their hearts - that's the truth.

I have no problem with that.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #18 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 10:59am

Had Jesus been the Jewish messiah, there wouldn't have been a Christian religion. The messiah concept is most closely copied by the Muslim notion of the mahdi. In my view, the faith in Jesus is more like that in a redeemer of souls and hearts, rather than in the coming of a liberator of the body (politic), a sword wielding warrior. There is also such a notion, I know, but it is always deferred to future generation. For the present time (at any time in hisrtory) Jesus is regarded by his devotees as a lord of their hearts and minds (which in turn ought to rule their bodies but that's another discussion).

Back to top

IP Logged

Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ? Reply #19 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 1:25pm It's totally beyond despute now that Jesus Christ had never existed as in the biblical depiction.
Back to top	« Last Edit: Aug 18^th, 2011 at 6:29pm by Amadd » IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21815
A cat with a view

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #20 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 1:40pm

Soren wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 10:59am:

Had Jesus been the Jewish messiah, there wouldn't have been a Christian religion. The messiah concept is most closely copied by the Muslim notion of the mahdi. In my view, the faith in Jesus is more like that in a redeemer of souls and hearts, rather than in the coming of a liberator of the body (politic), a sword wielding warrior. There is also such a notion, I know, but it is always deferred to future generation. For the present time (at any time in hisrtory) Jesus is regarded by his devotees as a lord of their hearts and minds (which in turn ought to rule their bodies but that's another discussion).

This also assumes, that the only reality, is the one which we all see, hear, and feel, with our senses [and also now, the reality which we can measure, with our machines].

All wisdom [in this apparent universe], does not reside with man.

Far from it. Grin

There is a lot, which we do not see, and it is real, ......more real, than this world.

But, where is my proof ???

Eh ?

LOL

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Amadd

Gold Member

Offline

Mo

Posts: 6217

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #21 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:15pm

Quote:

This also assumes, that the only reality, is the one which we all see, hear, and feel, with our senses [and also now, the reality which we can measure, with our machines].

All wisdom [in this apparent universe], does not reside with man.

Far from it. Grin

There is a lot, which we do not see, and it is real, ......more real, than this world.

But, where is my proof ???

Eh ?

LOL

How about answering the harder questions and provide some factual information that JESUS CHRIST was in fact an actual human being.

You cannot because is not true.

State factual infiormation puhlease.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Aug 18^th, 2011 at 6:27pm by Amadd »

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96099
Gender: male

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #22 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:20pm

Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 1:25pm:

It's totally beyond despute now that Jesus Christ had never existed as in the biblical depiction.

Nobody has thus far proved me wrong that the biblical depiction of Jesus Christ was merely a figment of the imagination. Just a story which somewhat aligns with real observations is all it is.

So try try again. Prove me right yet again.
I'm telling you the very truth now, as I have in the past again and again.

Jesus Christ never existed in real life...get it?

I very much hope that you get get it

Beyond dispute? Gee, you haven't been watching the Christian channel lately, have you?

It's one thing to say we don't have proof of Jesus. It's another to say that this means he never existed.

It goes beyond Christianity too. There's an interesting grave in present-day Iran, showing a man with crucifix wounds and telling a story much like Jesus'. Here, they believe that Jesus travelled to Persia after he came back from the grave, married and settled down.

True? Who knows?

Back to top

IP Logged

Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ? Reply #23 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm I have researched extensively. I know. Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false. Proof pluhlease
Back to top	IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #24 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:35pm

Then he went to Japan. Wink

http://www.thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm

Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

I have researched extensively. I know.

Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false.

Proof pluhlease Roll Eyes

Kenneth Humphreys has zilch credentials as a historian.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ? Reply #25 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:37pm How 'bout some serious proof then? No use glossing over the bs. Any well meaning person must be well sick of the glossed over bs. So where is the logic residing here? Where is the proof that JESUS CHRIST existed as told within the bible?
Back to top	« Last Edit: Aug 18^th, 2011 at 6:25pm by Amadd » IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21815
A cat with a view

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #26 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:58pm

Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

I have researched extensively. I know.

Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false.

Proof pluhlease Roll Eyes

I know that [all being well] a Subway Seafood Sensation exists in my near future,
....all being well, i will encounter this reality, this Saturday morning.

Can i prove to you that this will happen ???

Nup.

Amadd,

As far as, 'Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed', and you know this, ....good luck to you.

I am happy for you to believe, whatever you want to believe......
.....so long as it does not involve cutting my head off, or, cutting the head off people who are dear to me.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96099
Gender: male

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #27 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:23pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:58pm:

Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

I have researched extensively. I know.

Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false.

Proof pluhlease Roll Eyes

I know that [all being well] a Subway Seafood Sensation exists in my near future,
....all being well, i will encounter this reality, this Saturday morning.

Not if you have read the book of Leviticus, my friend. Shellfish is harum.

Back to top

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21815
A cat with a view

Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ?
Reply #28 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:33pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:23pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:58pm:

Amadd wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

I have researched extensively. I know.

Jesus Christ as depicted in the bible never existed. That is my statement and it is up to you to prove it false.

Proof pluhlease Roll Eyes

I know that [all being well] a Subway Seafood Sensation exists in my near future,
....all being well, i will encounter this reality, this Saturday morning.

Not if you have read the book of Leviticus, my friend. Shellfish is harum.

K,

I know that Allah will reject me, because i am not a moslem.

Will my God [the God of Israel] reject me, too, if i am not Jewish ?

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96099 Gender:	Re: Jesus, is he, was he, the Jewish Messiah ? Reply #29 - Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:36pm Yadda wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 3:33pm: K, I know that Allah will reject me, because i am not a moslem. Will my God [the God of Israel] reject me, too, if i am not Jewish ? No, my friend, He will welcome you!
Back to top	IP Logged