Australian Politics Forum - Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.

barnaby joe Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1992 euchareena	Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs. Reply #15 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 4:02pm Quote: However I have a damn good record as a commentator. no u dont
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49383 At my desk.	Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs. Reply #16 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 4:31pm Yes he does. Grey is able to offer a POV on any topic at all. And as Grey pointed out, a POV is as good as a rational argument.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.
Reply #17 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 7:41pm

freediver wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

Yes he does. Grey is able to offer a POV on any topic at all. And as Grey pointed out, a POV is as good as a rational argument.

Quote:

you could join the dots between them to make whatever picture you want.

Hahaha that's my line. A POV is a rational argument, which I don't hold much respect for. I prefer a reasonable argument which requires collecting and understanding a number of POV. Rationalism is chop logic.

Are you telling me that no economists agree with me Freediver?

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49383 At my desk.	Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs. Reply #18 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:20pm I have never met or heard of an economist who supports a return to economic isolationism.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.
Reply #19 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:46pm

Quote:

Posen’s thinking has evolved markedly. In the late 1990s he derided “neo-isolationists” who wanted to minimize American involvements abroad. (“Isolationist is what we called the people whose ideas we didn’t like,” he said.) Now he counts himself among their number and has embarked on a book and lecture tour expounding his case for restraint.

There are plenty of reasons why retrenchment should get more of a hearing in contemporary America, Posen says, but he doesn’t think power brokers will take the idea seriously until a definitive crisis limits the Pentagon or the Treasury. “It’s almost as if in foreign and security policy, democratic debate peters out,” Posen says. “If you argue for restraint, people hold up garlic like they would against a vampire and shout ‘Isolationist! Isolationist!’”

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/sunday-commentary/20110218-thanassis-cambanis-the-case-for-a-new-isolationism.ece

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.
Reply #20 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:26pm

In fact isn't it the case that only Australia embraces totally free trade and the EU, USA and China all practice protectionism of some form?

I am, as already stated, not calling for out and out isolationism, but a more tailored approach.

Quote:

The major issues facing agriculture in Australia are drought, water security, low soil fertility, weeds, global warming caused by climate change, biosecurity (biological threats from imported foods and livestock), tariffs on Australian exports in the importing country (particularly in Europe and Japan), subsidies to farmers in other countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Australia

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49383
At my desk.

Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.
Reply #21 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:41pm

Are you suggesting Posen is an economist rather than an equally ill informed hack?

Quote:

In fact isn't it the case that only Australia embraces totally free trade and the EU, USA and China all practice protectionism of some form?

Trade liberalisation is a slow process. I don't think any country has completely liberalised it's trade yet.

Quote:

I am, as already stated, not calling for out and out isolationism, but a more tailored approach.

If US taxpayers want to subsidise agriculture and sell the food to us for less than what it costs, I think it is a good thing for us to take advantage of that and a farmer would be selfish to demand we pay higher prices merely to keep him in business. There is never a good economic argument for trade barriers.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.
Reply #22 - Aug 21^st, 2011 at 1:58am

US president McKinley - "Under free trade the trader is the master and the producer the slave. Protection is but the law of nature, the law of self-preservation, of self-development, of securing the highest and best destiny of the race of man. [It is said] that protection is immoral…. Why, if protection builds up and elevates 63,000,000 [the U.S. population] of people, the influence of those 63,000,000 of people elevates the rest of the world. We cannot take a step in the pathway of progress without benefiting mankind everywhere. Well, they say, ‘Buy where you can buy the cheapest'…. Of course, that applies to labor as to everything else. Let me give you a maxim that is a thousand times better than that, and it is the protection maxim: ‘Buy where you can pay the easiest.' And that spot of earth is where labor wins its highest rewards."[6]

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs. Reply #23 - Aug 21^st, 2011 at 2:05am http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism#Arguments_for_protectionism
Back to top	"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Online

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49383
At my desk.

Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.
Reply #24 - Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:15pm

McKinley died in 1901. If you go back far enough you will find people who believed the earth was flat. Even very prominent people. That is hardly a validation of your argument. This is not some cyclical trend where the 'experts' will change their mind back in five years. Protectionism is dead and buried among economists. Even most of the public gets it now.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.
Reply #25 - Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 6:51pm

freediver wrote on Aug 21^st, 2011 at 12:15pm:

McKinley died in 1901. If you go back far enough you will find people who believed the earth was flat. Even very prominent people. That is hardly a validation of your argument. This is not some cyclical trend where the 'experts' will change their mind back in five years. Protectionism is dead and buried among economists. Even most of the public gets it now.

Quantas last week, Blue Scope Steel today, Free trade is a sick joke until you get Fair Trade worked out.

Quote:

The fact of the matter is that today, stuff-selling mega-corporations have a huge influence on our daily lives. And because of the competitive nature of our global economy, these corporations are generally only concerned with one thing - the bottom line. That is, maximizing profit, regardless of the social or environmental costs.
David Suzuki

Quote:

Business is war SunTzu

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106532 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs. Reply #26 - Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 7:26pm We'll never be able to compete with people who work for a bowl of rice per day. Oh well - it's off to Centerlink for most of us.
Back to top	IP Logged

perceptions_now

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11694
Perth WA
Gender: male

Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs.
Reply #27 - Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 8:23pm

freediver wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:20pm:

I have never met or heard of an economist who supports a return to economic isolationism.

Which may go to prove -
1) FD doesn't get out, much?
2) Your standard, run of the mill Economist, NOW has the understanding of a GNAT?

No, I didn't really mean that?

I'm sure that FD does get out?
But, he needs to start thinking outside the box!

However, as far as most Economists are concerned, THEY HAVE NO IDEA -
1) WHAT'S HAPPENED!
2) WHAT'S HAPPENING!
3) WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN!
4) OR, WHY!

Back to top

IP Logged

Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs. Reply #28 - Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:41pm 2001 http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2001/s305472.htm today - Helen Ridout - 'Australia in need of 'strategies' to help manufacturers.' http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-17/mps-call-for-manufacturing-assistance/2843... At long last.
Back to top	"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49383 At my desk.	Re: Australia needs isolationism and or tarrifs. Reply #29 - Aug 22^nd, 2011 at 9:56pm Quote: Quantas last week, Blue Scope Steel today, Free trade is a sick joke until you get Fair Trade worked out. Can you explain how to build a rational argument for protectionism from these observations?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged