Australian Politics Forum - The 0.7% Democracy

gizmo_2655

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #15 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:38am

astro_surf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:15am:

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 8:18pm:

So what do you suggest we do about it? Ban certain companies from speaking out in their own interest?

How about restricting the amount of money ALL companies can spend on political advertising? How about making ALL political advertising dependent on public funds so that particularly wealthy and powerful companies can't unduly influence the democratic system? There are many ways to regulate our democracy without impinging on the rights of companies and individuals to have their say. but there is no reason why there should be a natural right to use wealth and power to manipulate the political system.

It's not really political advertising though......they aren't coming out in favour of one party or the other......they're simply saying an action by the Government is harmful to their business...Not all that different to "The Burgers Are Better at Hungry Jacks"....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

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astro_surf

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #16 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:44am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

It's not really political advertising though......they aren't coming out in favour of one party or the other......they're simply saying an action by the Government is harmful to their business...Not all that different to "The Burgers Are Better at Hungry Jacks"....

Yes it is. If you are trying to influence the political system then it is political advertising and should not be left to the devices of the free-market. Everyone should have an equal say in a democracy and, like it or not, the media is the 4th estate and should be regulated as such when it comes to affairs of the state. Political parties, unions, companies and every other entity on the planet that would seek to promote it interests within the political system should be subject to the same rules. And those rules should involve public funding, capped at a certain level to give everyone within the Great Franchise to have an equal say.

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Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 11:23am:

So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea moron.&&

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #17 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:46am

astro_surf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:44am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

It's not really political advertising though......they aren't coming out in favour of one party or the other......they're simply saying an action by the Government is harmful to their business...Not all that different to "The Burgers Are Better at Hungry Jacks"....

Yes it is. If you are trying to influence the political system then it is political advertising and should not be left to the devices of the free-market. Everyone should have an equal say in a democracy and, like it or not, the media is the 4th estate and should be regulated as such when it comes to affairs of the state. Political parties, unions, companies and every other entity on the planet that would seek to promote it interests within the political system should be subject to the same rules.

Which would include the shareholders and management of companies affected by regulation changes...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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astro_surf

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #18 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:52am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:46am:

Which would include the shareholders and management of companies affected by regulation changes...

Exactly. But they shouldn't be allowed to use their financiql advantage to unduly influence the electorate above and beyond the ability of others to do the dsame thing. Democracy shouldn't be about the power of those with more money to have a bigger say. So publicly fund ALL political advertising, even out the playing field.

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Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 11:23am:

So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea moron.&&

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azulene

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #19 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:20am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:38am:

astro_surf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:15am:

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 8:18pm:

So what do you suggest we do about it? Ban certain companies from speaking out in their own interest?

How about restricting the amount of money ALL companies can spend on political advertising? How about making ALL political advertising dependent on public funds so that particularly wealthy and powerful companies can't unduly influence the democratic system? There are many ways to regulate our democracy without impinging on the rights of companies and individuals to have their say. but there is no reason why there should be a natural right to use wealth and power to manipulate the political system.

It's not really political advertising though......they aren't coming out in favour of one party or the other......they're simply saying an action by the Government is harmful to their business...Not all that different to "The Burgers Are Better at Hungry Jacks"....

One is against the carbon tax right? The other calls it a nanny state right?

Tony Abbot has made it abundantly clear he will do whatever big business want. The government is standing against it. It's totally in favor of Tony Abbott.

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"In politics stupidity is not a handicap."&& -- Napoleon Bonaparte

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azulene

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #20 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:22am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:34am:

azulene wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 11:44pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 11:21pm:

azulene wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 11:18pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 11:02pm:

azulene wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Are they even Australians? I know Imperial Tobacco Australia is a big chunk Philip Morris which is Hong Kong. Why is Hong Kong deciding government issues in Australia?

Actually Philip Morris International is a competitor to Imperial Tobacco...

And PMI is headquartered in New York, and Imperial is headquatered in Bristol...

The only Hong Kong connection is a licensing deal with British-American Tobacco over brand names in HK....whhich in turn gives them rights under the Australia-Hong Kong Biliateral Investment treaty...

Not exactly responsible, concerned Australian citizens though?...

But neither are they Hong Kong based...

They aren't based in Australia.

Thanks for qualifying my "who knows who from who knows where" statement. You did all the work for me

No problem..

But if you're going to go off about a company, or companies.....it's a good idea to have the right info about them....other wise you end up having to do 'retraction theads'...

My retraction thread was completely voluntary. Nobody caught me out on anything, I caught myself out and was honest about it. Here, more than half of the threads ought to be retraction threads.

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"In politics stupidity is not a handicap."&& -- Napoleon Bonaparte

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longweekend58

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #21 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:29am

azulene wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

A big chunk of advertising on TV currently is anti-government and comes from the Coal Association of Australia and Imperial Tobacco Australia.

While I am all for freedom of speech and democracy, something about this situation doesn't sit well for me.

Normal advertising is fine, you are selling a product or a service.

But businesses coming in and turning the people against a government for their financial gain?

Who are these businesses? We didn't elect them..

Are they even Australians? I know Imperial Tobacco Australia is a big chunk Philip Morris which is Hong Kong. Why is Hong Kong deciding government issues in Australia?

Is it appropriate for these businesses to control the government for their own financial gains?

Does this still constitute a democracy?

People want to bring the government down for a 0.7% rise in the cost of living.

All this fuelled by a massive advertising campaign from unelected, obscured, and unaccountable private consortiums (owned by which countries?) that want to preserve their bottom line.

Private companies are in control of Australian politics.

It's a 0.7% democracy..

WHO IS THIS GOVERNMENT? WE DIDNT ELECT THEM.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #22 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:30am

GoddyofOz wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 7:20pm:

cods wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 7:09pm:

azulene wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 6:57pm:

A big chunk of advertising on TV currently is anti-government and comes from the Coal Association of Australia and Imperial Tobacco Australia.

While I am all for freedom of speech and democracy, something about this situation doesn't sit well for me.

Normal advertising is fine, you are selling a product or a service.

But businesses coming in and turning the people against a government for their financial gain?

Who are these businesses? We didn't elect them..

Are they even Australians? I know Imperial Tobacco Australia is a big chunk Philip Morris which is Hong Kong. Why is Hong Kong deciding government issues in Australia?

Is it appropriate for these businesses to control the government for their own financial gains?

Does this still constitute a democracy?

People want to bring the government down for a 0.7% rise in the cost of living.

All this fuelled by a massive advertising campaign from unelected, obscured, and unaccountable private consortiums (owned by which countries?) that want to preserve their bottom line.

Private companies are in control of Australian politics.

It's a 0.7% democracy..

SO DID YOU FEEL THE SAME WHEN THE UNIONS SPENT $30mILLION ON ADVERTISING FOR 12 MONTHS IN 2007 TO GET RID OF THE lIBS...

or was that different???????..

talking about cost of living... what will it be in July 2012....have you checked it out lately...I am already having almost $70 per pay extra go out of my funds on direct debits.. thats without the grocery and petrol and car costs and maintenance and insurance.. and it goes on and one..

everything goes up... some things you can avoid.. but others there is no way..give me a break if you think cost of living will go up in July 2012 by o.7% then you are brainwashed..you really are..

the pollies have already given themselves 3% rise plus $1500 tax free B&B..thats now.. ahead of any CARBON TAX... they are already geared to combat their rent may go up poor dears..and the Big Lunches In Manuka . ACT will most definately cost more .. again poor dears.

are we being prepared by being given raises NOW ahead of time.. ?????

How, pray tell, did you come to lump Trade Unions in with Corporations? I believe one is there to protect workers and the other is there to make money.

The last time I looked, Freedom of Speech wasnt dependant on who you worked for or what business you ran.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #23 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:35am

azulene wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 10:30pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 8:18pm:

So what do you suggest we do about it? Ban certain companies from speaking out in their own interest?

The coal and tobacco companies are taking a huge risk with this. You cannot actually buy public opinion and the risk of backfire is not insignificant. Our democracy is mature enough to handle this.

We have far bigger problems with companies donating to political parties. That is where your concern should be.

Hmm, hit a nerve hey? Who is your sponsor?

BTW, this is how a little noticed issue becomes a bigger one. Bullying. Don't like it at all. Being told what to think or what to be concerned about. Not a fan. In your opinion our democracy is "mature enough to handle it"? Yet you nudged me to a less popular thread when my thread was as political as you can get.... Is this sort of "censoring" your version of a "mature democracy"? I can see what sort of democracy you subscribe to. Fair enough.

I suggest we ban foreign companies from political interference with our democracy.

Who the bugger do they think they are?

Our society is not about their multi billion dollar profits.

People who cannot vote in this country really ought to have no word in how it is run.

Isn't what they are doing in breech of media laws?

I think it is.

You can buy public opinion, what a crock.

Now, how can I make this vomitus affront to our democracy backfire?

How can I increase their risks?

Guess I will start poking around and waking people up.

Thanks for bullying me into action

and you wonder why I think you are astro-turd when you put up crap like this? You are just like every other left-wing idiot that cries foul when someone speaks up against them. If you believed in free speech you would not be saying what you do. Like so many other lefties you find true democracy - with all its freedoms - a little inconvenient at times. Why do you think so many left-wing governments are just dictatorships with single candidate elections? Because lefties proudly claim the 'democracy' lable and then trounce it at every opportunity.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #24 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:38am

astro_surf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:15am:

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 8:18pm:

So what do you suggest we do about it? Ban certain companies from speaking out in their own interest?

How about restricting the amount of money ALL companies can spend on political advertising? How about making ALL political advertising dependent on public funds so that particularly wealthy and powerful companies can't unduly influence the democratic system? There are many ways to regulate our democracy without impinging on the rights of companies and individuals to have their say. but there is no reason why there should be a natural right to use wealth and power to manipulate the political system.

so that companies and individuals need PERMISSION from the government for political commentary and advertising? You lefties really do love your CONTROLS, dont you. Why do you hate democracy and free speech so much?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #25 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:40am

astro_surf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:52am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:46am:

Which would include the shareholders and management of companies affected by regulation changes...

Exactly. But they shouldn't be allowed to use their financiql advantage to unduly influence the electorate above and beyond the ability of others to do the dsame thing. Democracy shouldn't be about the power of those with more money to have a bigger say. So publicly fund ALL political advertising, even out the playing field.

So I personally should be given the funding ($12M thanks!) for a national anti-carbon-tax campaign? That IS what you are saying, after all!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Bobby.

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #26 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 9:33am

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:40am:

astro_surf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:52am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:46am:

Which would include the shareholders and management of companies affected by regulation changes...

Exactly. But they shouldn't be allowed to use their financiql advantage to unduly influence the electorate above and beyond the ability of others to do the dsame thing. Democracy shouldn't be about the power of those with more money to have a bigger say. So publicly fund ALL political advertising, even out the playing field.

So I personally should be given the funding ($12M thanks!) for a national anti-carbon-tax campaign? That IS what you are saying, after all!

Hi Longweekend,
How much did Howard spend on the GST adverts?

Unchain my Heart

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azulene

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #27 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 10:05am

The campaigns are ILLEGAL!

They are NAMELESS AND FACELESS AND UNLIKELY TO BE BY AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS

THEY ARE UNDEMOCRATIC

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rb/2004-05/05rb05.htm#req

Requirements for format and presentation

The Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 and the Broadcasting Services Act 1992 set out the rules for the format and presentation of political advertisements in Australia. The Electoral Act contains the following requirements for the presentation of political advertisements:

s. 328(1): any advertisement, handbill, pamphlet, poster or notice must carry the name and address of the person who authorised it, and, where the advertisement is not in a newspaper, it must also include the name and place of business of the printer
s. 328(1A): any video recording containing electoral matter must have the name and address of the person who authorised it at the end of the recording, and
s. 331: where an advertisement contains electoral matter, the proprietor of the journal in which it appears (‘journal’ here meaning newspaper, magazine or other periodical, whether published for sale or free distribution) must print the word ‘advertisement’ as a headline to the advertisement.

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"In politics stupidity is not a handicap."&& -- Napoleon Bonaparte

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azulene

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Re: The 0.7% Democracy
Reply #28 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 10:20am

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 8:38am:

astro_surf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2011 at 12:15am:

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2011 at 8:18pm:

So what do you suggest we do about it? Ban certain companies from speaking out in their own interest?

How about restricting the amount of money ALL companies can spend on political advertising? How about making ALL political advertising dependent on public funds so that particularly wealthy and powerful companies can't unduly influence the democratic system? There are many ways to regulate our democracy without impinging on the rights of companies and individuals to have their say. but there is no reason why there should be a natural right to use wealth and power to manipulate the political system.

so that companies and individuals need PERMISSION from the government for political commentary and advertising? You lefties really do love your CONTROLS, dont you. Why do you hate democracy and free speech so much?

Check out the law, it actually protects free speech with accountability.

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"In politics stupidity is not a handicap."&& -- Napoleon Bonaparte

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: The 0.7% Democracy Reply #29 - Aug 19^th, 2011 at 10:30am BAT and other baccy comapnies have every right to call a spade a spade, or a stupid idea a stupid idea. It's paid for out of their pocket after all. I'd be more concerned about governemnts launching hundred million $ ad campaigns, at our expense, to sell us their crap policies.
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