Australian Politics Forum - Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?

muso

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #105 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:52am

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves.

It's been like that for some time.

I know I would not want it any other way.

Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia.

Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

Well, you'd have to read the full document rather than just that snippet, but others have explained that there are religious cults which break national laws, and this potentially applies to many mainstream religions such as Islam, and some Christian Sects. The Exclusive Brethren come to mind.

I think we need to have the freedom to practice any religion as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws or impinge on individual rights to chop and change their religion without fear of being threatened with death or being deprived of contact with their loved ones etc.

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muso

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #106 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:57am

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:42am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:30am:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

The bible is not fake Pansi, just misunderstood. It is the way it is interpreted. It is not the word of god, it is the word of man. That is where the problem comes in.

ok the bible is not fake, it is an actual book. It is declared to be the word of god, but it is the word of many men, all flesh and bone human men.

Well .. you are both entitled to your opinions.

That doesn't change the fact that the Holy Bible is the Word of God.

http://asa.chm.colostate.edu/archive/asa/199610/0151.html

That's a question that even Catholic Theologians continue to debate amongst themselves. Most will argue that it is imperfect because it was written by men. The link is a Vatican Press Release that legitimises Evolution in the eyes of the Catholic Church and thus makes it necessary to make an entirely different interpretation of Genesis as being "ancient fables".

People use the term "Mainstream Christianity". In fact, Christianity has a number of 'mainstreams'. Roman Catholicism and the Protestant branch are two of the main ones in Australia. While they have a lot of commonality, they are far from compatible.

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« Last Edit: Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:07pm by muso »

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freediver

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #107 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:03pm

muso wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:52am:

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves.

It's been like that for some time.

I know I would not want it any other way.

Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia.

Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

Well, you'd have to read the full document rather than just that snippet, but others have explained that there are religious cults which break national laws, and this potentially applies to many mainstream religions such as Islam, and some Christian Sects. The Exclusive Brethren come to mind.

I think we need to have the freedom to practice any religion as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws or impinge on individual rights to chop and change their religion without fear of being threatened with death or being deprived of contact with their loved ones etc.

So how does the swiss ban on turrets, or the various bans on 'Muslim' clothing fit into that? The Americans seem to have a much better grasp on religious freedom.

Quote:

as long as it doesn't infringe on national laws

So in other words it is legal so long as it is not illegal? How is this a meaningful protection of rights?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #108 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:10pm

muso wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:57am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:42am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 11:30am:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

The bible is not fake Pansi, just misunderstood. It is the way it is interpreted. It is not the word of god, it is the word of man. That is where the problem comes in.

ok the bible is not fake, it is an actual book. It is declared to be the word of god, but it is the word of many men, all flesh and bone human men.

Well .. you are both entitled to your opinions.

That doesn't change the fact that the Holy Bible is the Word of God.

That's a question that even Catholic Theologians continue to debate amongst themselves. Most will argue that it is imperfect because it was written by men.

True .. that still doesn't change the fact that the Holy Bible is the Word of God.

The issue is that these theologians argue from humanist philosophical frameworks. These frameworks function as blinkers.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #109 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:10pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 10:13pm:

Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails...

I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers....

I don't think so

Quote:

In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

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muso

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #110 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:16pm

freediver wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:03pm:

So in other words it is legal so long as it is not illegal? How is this a meaningful protection of rights?

Surely you can see that if a religion requires to sacrifice a virgin to the Sun God every wednesday, then legality trumps human rights? Please let me know if you don't find that blindingly obvious so I can start to worry about you.

OK, that's an extreme example, but there need to be some secular controls in place for religion.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #111 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:21pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:27pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves.

It's been like that for some time.

I know I would not want it any other way.

Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia.

Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy?

bump for Muso and Freediver

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #112 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:27pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:21pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:27pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves.

It's been like that for some time.

I know I would not want it any other way.

Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia.

Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy?

bump for Muso and Freediver

there is nothing to bump. can't you see it's an old book written by primitive and ignorant fools. Why do you place so much importance on this one book ??

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia? Reply #113 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:28pm Umm Last Nail .. perhaps you ought to read the posts in question before you type something totally irrelevant. Just a tip.
Back to top	If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free. HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415) IP Logged

Sir lastnail

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #114 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:32pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:28pm:

Umm Last Nail .. perhaps you ought to read the posts in question before you type something totally irrelevant. Just a tip.

yes but the basis for your arguments is the truth of this one book. It's really sad that people in the 21st century still want to hang on to a piece of obsolete and outdated text which has no value and relevance whatsoever to the present time.

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #115 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:55pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:32pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:28pm:

Umm Last Nail .. perhaps you ought to read the posts in question before you type something totally irrelevant. Just a tip.

yes but the basis for your arguments is the truth of this one book. It's really sad that people in the 21st century still want to hang on to a piece of obsolete and outdated text which has no value and relevance whatsoever to the present time.

Umm .. you obviously haven't yet read back because you still haven't quite realised what we're actually talking about.

Here's a hint: It starts with R and ends with ELIGIOUS FREEDOM.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #116 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:01pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:10pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 10:13pm:

Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails...

I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers....

I don't think so

Quote:

In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Precisely...Jesus says 'your Father'...meaning God, not Jesus..

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #117 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:05pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:55pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:32pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:28pm:

Umm Last Nail .. perhaps you ought to read the posts in question before you type something totally irrelevant. Just a tip.

yes but the basis for your arguments is the truth of this one book. It's really sad that people in the 21st century still want to hang on to a piece of obsolete and outdated text which has no value and relevance whatsoever to the present time.

Umm .. you obviously haven't yet read back because you still haven't quite realised what we're actually talking about.

Here's a hint: It starts with R and ends with ELIGIOUS FREEDOM.

yes i know what it means. Do you think that it is still ok to burn witches at the stake just because some old book says so ?? Is this the sort of freedom that you seek ?

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #118 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:08pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:10pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 10:13pm:

Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails...

I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers....

I don't think so

Quote:

In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Precisely...Jesus says 'your Father'...meaning God, not Jesus..

But Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect.
When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth. Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer, he is clearly lying.

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #119 - Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:11pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:08pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 1:01pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 28^th, 2011 at 12:10pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 10:13pm:

Umm I think you may have misquoted or misunderstood that Nails...

I'm pretty sure the bible actually says that God hears all prayers....

I don't think so

Quote:

In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Precisely...Jesus says 'your Father'...meaning God, not Jesus..

But Jesus is supposed to be God. God is supposed to be perfect.
When Jesus speaks, he should speak the truth. Yet when we look at what Jesus says about prayer, he is clearly lying.

No, Jesus is the Son of God, not God...Just because some sections of Christianity are confused on that point doesn't mean the bible is 'wrong'....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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