Australian Politics Forum - Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?

Deborahmac09 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1619	Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia? Reply #75 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:05pm Sprong is not an idiot longweekend.
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freediver

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #76 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:16pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:20pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves.

It's been like that for some time.

I know I would not want it any other way.

Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia.

Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

I understand what they are trying to say, for example a religion doesnt have the right to rape children for example. But article 9 is so hopelessly compromised that it eliminates the concept of 'a right' and replaces it with 'convenience'. Rights are by definition OFTEN inconvenient and until they are allowed to stand when they are uncomfortable and inconvenient they arent really rights at all.

Which is why Europe, despite apparently having freedom of religion, has absurd bans on Muslim turrets, various items of clothing etc. These are hardly necessary.

Quote:

Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy?

True rights are above law and above democracy. This is not context, this is making rights subject to democracy and law. In other words, if 50% of people want to take your rights away, they will be taken away. How much protection is that? To me it seems like it gives no more protection than a democracy that lacks any such 'convention'. It is a worthless piece of paper.

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« Last Edit: Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:23pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia? Reply #77 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:24pm Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:05pm: Sprong is not an idiot longweekend. he is hardly mainstream.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49102 At my desk.	Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia? Reply #78 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:25pm Spong is sprung.
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longweekend58

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #79 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:26pm

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:20pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:05pm:

muso wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Muso .. it all comes down to the fact that in Australia people have the freedom to choose how they wish to identify themselves.

It's been like that for some time.

I know I would not want it any other way.

Fully agree. I think Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights is a good model. We may need to adopt something similar in Australia.

Article 9 includes the freedom to change a religion or belief, and to manifest a religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society"

Sounds pretty meaningless to me - you have the freedom to practice, unless those who wish to take it away from you declare it to be necessary.

I understand what they are trying to say, for example a religion doesnt have the right to rape children for example. But article 9 is so hopelessly compromised that it eliminates the concept of 'a right' and replaces it with 'convenience'. Rights are by definition OFTEN inconvenient and until they are allowed to stand when they are uncomfortable and inconvenient they arent really rights at all.

Which is why Europe, despite apparently having freedom of religion, has absurd bans on Muslim turrets, various items of clothing etc. These are hardly necessary.

Quote:

Huh?? How is it meaningless when it is actually defining and protecting religious freedom within the context of law and democracy?

True rights are above law and above democracy. This is not context, this is making rights subject to democracy and law. In other words, if 50% of people want to take your rights away, they will be taken away. How much protection is that? To me it seems like it gives no more protection than a democracy that lacks any such 'convention'. It is a worthless piece of paper.

well said. Article 9 was written with Islam in mind. True rights have NO ONE IN MIND. they stand above law and majority opinion. the freedom of speech is the right to express minority opinions - even distasteful and abhorrent ones.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #80 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:32pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:02pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:39pm:

Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal.

J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World.

Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus.

why is it that you only ever quote idiots and morons? has it ever occured to you to research a topic INSIDE the mainstream?

Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend, and you turn against your own kind. I'd hate to sit next to you in the pew.

Why is it that you call anyone you don't agree with an idiot?

You call people who don't vote for your beloved liberal party idiots too.

You call Professor Steven Keen an idiot because he has a different opinion on money matters to you.

I don't agree with heaps of people, it doesn't mean they are idiots.

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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longweekend58

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #81 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:40pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:32pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:02pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:39pm:

Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal.

J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World.

Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus.

why is it that you only ever quote idiots and morons? has it ever occured to you to research a topic INSIDE the mainstream?

Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend, and you turn against your own kind. I'd hate to sit next to you in the pew.

Why is it that you call anyone you don't agree with an idiot?

You call people who don't vote for your beloved liberal party idiots too.

You call Professor Steven Keen an idiot because he has a different opinion on money matters to you.

I don't agree with heaps of people, it doesn't mean they are idiots.

Sprong doesnt beleive in the Bible ergo he is a fool. And I call Keen a fool because for nearly 5 years now every single predictio he has made has failed. That is not a recommendation to listento him slavishly like you do.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #82 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:43pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:26pm:

True rights have NO ONE IN MIND. they stand above law and majority opinion. the freedom of speech is the right to express minority opinions - even distasteful and abhorrent ones.

Constitutional rights are not above the law, they are a part of the basis upon which law is founded.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Deborahmac09 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1619	Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia? Reply #83 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:44pm longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:24pm: Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:05pm: Sprong is not an idiot longweekend. he is hardly mainstream. and that is in his favour. Just because it is mainstream, does not make it right.
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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #84 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:51pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:40pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:32pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:02pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:39pm:

Sickness and tragedy are not punishments, they are facts of life. Viruses attack, wars kill, tumours are formed, leukaemia strikes, blood vessels wear out and rupture, innocent people are killed by drink drivers and psychopaths acting out a drama that makes sense only within their sick minds. Accidents occur, alcohol distorts the mind, and children are killed while playing with guns. These are facts of existence, there is no theistic God directing these processes of cause and effect to whom we can appeal.

J Shelby Spong - A New Christianity for a New World.

Besides if there is a God that has the power to stop the starvation and famine and he doesn't he's not a God that I would want to know. That's not a God of love at all. That's a nasty, vindictive God that wants to play the power game. And why would someone so almighty want mere mortals to bow down and worship them. The whole thing was written to control the hordes and make them tow the line through fear of a fiery exodus.

why is it that you only ever quote idiots and morons? has it ever occured to you to research a topic INSIDE the mainstream?

Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend, and you turn against your own kind. I'd hate to sit next to you in the pew.

Why is it that you call anyone you don't agree with an idiot?

You call people who don't vote for your beloved liberal party idiots too.

You call Professor Steven Keen an idiot because he has a different opinion on money matters to you.

I don't agree with heaps of people, it doesn't mean they are idiots.

Sprong doesnt beleive in the Bible ergo he is a fool. And I call Keen a fool because for nearly 5 years now every single predictio he has made has failed. That is not a recommendation to listento him slavishly like you do.

He's an idiot because he believes the bible was written by men? that would be most of the world who are idiots.

Keen's not a fool, but you could be for not understanding WHY his predictions have not come to fruition yet. clue - stimulus packages, another clue QE1 and QE2. Watch his predictions fall nicely into place when the stimulus is finished.

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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Deborahmac09 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1619	Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia? Reply #85 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:56pm Quote: Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend, Actually by the beleifs of main stream Christianity, Sprong is not a Christian. They can not agree among themselves either.
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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #86 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:03pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:54pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:40pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:35pm:

Lisa,
Quote:

As it so happens .. the Holy Bible canvasses people like you Bobby.

Have a read here:

Romans 1:25 and 26

They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator.

That is why God abandoned them.

Lisa - God abandoned me long ago -
I am destined to burn forever in hellfire & damnation.

If you truly know the hopelessness of your pathetic situation and destiny .. why don't you try crying out to God for mercy and deliverance?

Or is this just another "joke" for you Bobby? Just remember .. a joke is ALWAYS half true.

Lisa - I just hope God doesn't exist - because if he does
then I'm in a lot of trouble. Wink

I can only speak to you as a caring friend Bobby.

What you do with what I tell you .. is entirely up to you.

NB Apologies for the delay in responding to you .. but I had to attend to dinner.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #87 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:21pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:56pm:

Quote:

Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend,

Actually by the beleifs of main stream Christianity, Sprong is not a Christian. They can not agree among themselves either.

No. The very standards, definitions and core values which God has recurringly expounded throughout the Holy Bible preclude Sprong from claiming the title of Christian.

Sprong is in fact a humanist.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #88 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:25pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 6:14pm:

Ahh here we are again .. passionately discussing/debating religion.

This can only mean one thing .. IT MUST BE SATURDAY NIGHT EVERYONE lol

Where is my friend Mr Helian?? He's usually about

bump for Helian (in case he missed it).

Thought you'd turn up soon lol Tongue

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Deborahmac09

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Re: Is Religion doomed to irrelevence in Australia?
Reply #89 - Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:34pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 8:21pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 27^th, 2011 at 7:56pm:

Quote:

Sprong is a very educated man who has dedicated his life to the study of theism. Sprong is a Christian (retired Bishop) just like you longweekend,

Actually by the beleifs of main stream Christianity, Sprong is not a Christian. They can not agree among themselves either.

No. The very standards, definitions and core values which God has recurringly expounded throughout the Holy Bible preclude Sprong from claiming the title of Christian.

Sprong is in fact a humanist.

Impressions differ, especially when we accept that it was written by humans, with human thoughts, human frailties and human superstition. Sprong understands this.

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