Australian Politics Forum - Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid

gizmo_2655

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #75 - Sep 20^th, 2011 at 11:02pm

Grey wrote on Sep 20^th, 2011 at 10:53pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 19^th, 2011 at 5:18pm:

Grey wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 11:33am:

If the founding fathers (and mothers) of the state of Israel weren't the most crap thinking, ultraright bunch of racists, we wouldn't have this problem. It's easy to see that the Zionist support base hasn't changed much, Soren, Yadda et al.

It's good to know that you think most countries are ultra right and racist, as most countries recognise Israel.

The Palaetinian Arabs' misery stems from the fact that they don't.
If... ... they would welcome such an economic, scientific and cultural powerhouse in their midst. Israel could be their lifeline to the modern world.

Soren, soren, sometimes the things that you say leave me gobsmacked. You see I couldn't agree more, (leaving out the unnecessary and insulting) The return of the other people of the region, the Jewish diaspora, should indeed have been a joyous event. The children of the diaspora brought with them new knowledges, friends, contacts, energy and money. Handled well it could indeed have been a win/win arrangement.

But the Zionist leadership, Jabotinsky, Ben Gurion and their ilk, unfortunately did not want that. You know as well as I, for I'm sure you have read the writings, that what the Zionists were hell bent on, was to take the land and drive the Palestinians away. That's why Adolf Eichmann exclaimed, "If I was a Jew I'd be a zionist" . That's what I meant by saying the foundations were ill made. That's why Avigdor Lieberman is the foreign minister (and still deputy PM no?). The knowledges that built Israels foundations are still supporting the rotten structure.

Can bad foundations be made good? It's possible, but it's not easy.

And yet, strangely, it was the other Arab nations that started the problems ( not the Arab population of Palestine/Israel, but Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia,Iraq and Lebanon)........The Arab population of the Mandate would have received everything that they are NOW campaigning for, in 1948...

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Soren

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #76 - Sep 20^th, 2011 at 11:32pm

The jews accepted a diminished offer of what was in the original mandate, declared independence - and were promply attacked.

Yet they remain at fault. Why? For declaring independence? For being invaded the next day? It's hard to be magnanimous towards your neighbours if their opening gambit is to wage war against you. But somehow, once again, it' the jews'fault that they were attacked. And despite being under siege in every day of its history, Israel has managed to be a successful economy, society, culture and international citizen.

The issue is - Muslims will not accept Israel's right to exist in any shape or form. Which means, in effect, that the Muslims do not accept the decision of the League of Nation/United Nations. And somehow that's the jews' fault.

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Grey

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #77 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 11:28am

Soren wrote on Sep 20^th, 2011 at 11:32pm:

The jews accepted a diminished offer of what was in the original mandate, declared independence - and were promply attacked.

Yet they remain at fault. Why? For declaring independence? For being invaded the next day? It's hard to be magnanimous towards your neighbours if their opening gambit is to wage war against you. But somehow, once again, it' the jews'fault that they were attacked. And despite being under siege in every day of its history, Israel has managed to be a successful economy, society, culture and international citizen.

The issue is - Muslims will not accept Israel's right to exist in any shape or form. Which means, in effect, that the Muslims do not accept the decision of the League of Nation/United Nations. And somehow that's the jews' fault.

The Zionists were never going to accept and never will accept, anything other than 'Greater Israel'. If they take the West Bank, Syria and Lebanon they still wouldn't be satisified. Any success will be taken as a sign of 'manifest destiny'. Their 'modus operandi' has been plain from the begining. It is to destabalise neighbouring countries as much as possible until they have the means to annex them completely. It is the blueprint of the US in South America.

Hamas and Hezboullah are their 'useful idiots' and it would not surprise me if funding for those orgs. came from Israel itself.

Another thing. There has never been a 'spontaneous revolution' in all human history. Such things require planning and funding. The 'Arab spring' shows all the hall marks of the 'spontaneous revolutions' that took place a decade earlier in the old Soviet satellites. They were ultimately exposed to have been aided and abetted by US 'think tanks' active throughout that region. All those orange flags, balloons, mass demonstrations equipped with food drink and huge screens took a power of organising. PNAC is alive and well in the Middle East.

Of course the Empire over extended itself and this is causing problems, and will cause a lot more for its most cherished satellite Israel.

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #78 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 1:44pm

Grey wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 11:28am:

Soren wrote on Sep 20^th, 2011 at 11:32pm:

The jews accepted a diminished offer of what was in the original mandate, declared independence - and were promply attacked.

Yet they remain at fault. Why? For declaring independence? For being invaded the next day? It's hard to be magnanimous towards your neighbours if their opening gambit is to wage war against you. But somehow, once again, it' the jews'fault that they were attacked. And despite being under siege in every day of its history, Israel has managed to be a successful economy, society, culture and international citizen.

The issue is - Muslims will not accept Israel's right to exist in any shape or form. Which means, in effect, that the Muslims do not accept the decision of the League of Nation/United Nations. And somehow that's the jews' fault.

The Zionists were never going to accept and never will accept, anything other than 'Greater Israel'. If they take the West Bank, Syria and Lebanon they still wouldn't be satisified. Any success will be taken as a sign of 'manifest destiny'. Their 'modus operandi' has been plain from the begining. It is to destabalise neighbouring countries as much as possible until they have the means to annex them completely. It is the blueprint of the US in South America.

Hamas and Hezboullah are their 'useful idiots' and it would not surprise me if funding for those orgs. came from Israel itself.

Another thing. There has never been a 'spontaneous revolution' in all human history. Such things require planning and funding. The 'Arab spring' shows all the hall marks of the 'spontaneous revolutions' that took place a decade earlier in the old Soviet satellites. They were ultimately exposed to have been aided and abetted by US 'think tanks' active throughout that region. All those orange flags, balloons, mass demonstrations equipped with food drink and huge screens took a power of organising. PNAC is alive and well in the Middle East.

Of course the Empire over extended itself and this is causing problems, and will cause a lot more for its most cherished satellite Israel.

Some modus operandi which was plain from the beginning.
Israel was invaded the day after it's formation in 1948.
Their modus operandi was to defend themselves which they have done again and again and again.
And yet they have never invaded these countries, just responded to acts of aggression perpetrated by those very two same countries you mentioned and many others.
Israel wants peace, but not peace at any price.

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Soren

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #79 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 2:20pm

Grey wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 11:28am:

Soren wrote on Sep 20^th, 2011 at 11:32pm:

The jews accepted a diminished offer of what was in the original mandate, declared independence - and were promply attacked.

Yet they remain at fault. Why? For declaring independence? For being invaded the next day? It's hard to be magnanimous towards your neighbours if their opening gambit is to wage war against you. But somehow, once again, it' the jews'fault that they were attacked. And despite being under siege in every day of its history, Israel has managed to be a successful economy, society, culture and international citizen.

The issue is - Muslims will not accept Israel's right to exist in any shape or form. Which means, in effect, that the Muslims do not accept the decision of the League of Nation/United Nations. And somehow that's the jews' fault.

The Zionists were never going to accept and never will accept, anything other than 'Greater Israel'. If they take the West Bank, Syria and Lebanon they still wouldn't be satisified. Any success will be taken as a sign of 'manifest destiny'. Their 'modus operandi' has been plain from the begining. It is to destabalise neighbouring countries as much as possible until they have the means to annex them completely. It is the blueprint of the US in South America.

Hamas and Hezboullah are their 'useful idiots' and it would not surprise me if funding for those orgs. came from Israel itself.

Another thing. There has never been a 'spontaneous revolution' in all human history. Such things require planning and funding. The 'Arab spring' shows all the hall marks of the 'spontaneous revolutions' that took place a decade earlier in the old Soviet satellites. They were ultimately exposed to have been aided and abetted by US 'think tanks' active throughout that region. All those orange flags, balloons, mass demonstrations equipped with food drink and huge screens took a power of organising. PNAC is alive and well in the Middle East.

Of course the Empire over extended itself and this is causing problems, and will cause a lot more for its most cherished satellite Israel.

I was hoping that you would not show yourself to be a complete looney. My hopes are dashed.

Greater Israel? What? 20 km wide, rather than 15? The Occupied Territories would not now be occupied if Israel had not been attacked. Or rather, they would remain occupied by Jordan and Egypt.
Has Israel ever make any territorial claims against any of its sovereign neighbours? No. ANy disputes are due to the shifting of the boundaries of the Mandate from the 1917 declaration until Israel's independence AND all the subsequent wars, none of them started by Israel.

The jews effectively said in 1948: "we'll have what we have now and we can talk about the difference later" The Arabs said "you can't have any of it" and started shooting.

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longweekend58

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #80 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 4:36pm

Grey wrote on Sep 19^th, 2011 at 3:01pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:00pm:

Grey wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 11:33am:

If the founding fathers (and mothers) of the state of Israel weren't the most crap thinking, ultraright bunch of racists, we wouldn't have this problem. It's easy to see that the Zionist support base hasn't changed much, Soren, Yadda et al.

If the foundations are ill the building WILL fall.

by every possible measuring stick, Israel has thrived. kinda makes your argument look more than a little stupid, doesnt it?

BUT YOU ARE WRONG! Security is a measure. Personally I think that the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians are decent, ordinary people. I would not like to see anybody driven into the sea. I think Zionists and Hamasists are arseholes, if people got rid of them and their gods there's be a chance for peace.

Of course Israelis are more prosperous than Palestinians. If Palestinians build a road, a house, plant an olive tree, it gets bulldozed. Israel has to be the peace buyer because only the strong can afford generosity.

that simply isnt true. The palestinians have this problem with not accepting who owns the land - Israel. you cant complain if you have 3 separate wars and lose every time - including more land.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Grey

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #81 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 6:22pm

Yeah right, the trouble started in 1948. Israel had a perfect right to expel Palestinians and steal their homes. After all the Palestinians were offered a really great deal. And Avigdor Lieberman is much misunderstood. When he talked of driving Israels remaining Palestinians into the Dead sea, he meant for a picnic lunch.

Reality: The Jews of Israel launched a bloody attack on Palestinians in 1920 to force the hand of the Western Powers then meeting to discuss the Zionist question and others. Jabotinsky was appointed to lead this 'Jewish Defence force' the Haganah, later to become Irgun and finally Likud.

Jabotinsky, 'Iron Wall' 1923

"Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are 500 years behind us, spiritually they do not have our endurance or our strength of will, but this exhausts all of the internal differences. We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile. This childish fantasy of our “Arabo-philes” comes from some kind of contempt for the Arab people, of some kind of unfounded view of this race as a rabble ready to be bribed in order to sell out their homeland for a railroad network."

Grin

Some smacking dove.

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longweekend58

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #82 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 6:58pm

Grey wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 6:22pm:

Yeah right, the trouble started in 1948. Israel had a perfect right to expel Palestinians and steal their homes. After all the Palestinians were offered a really great deal. And Avigdor Lieberman is much misunderstood. When he talked of driving Israels remaining Palestinians into the Dead sea, he meant for a picnic lunch.

Reality: The Jews of Israel launched a bloody attack on Palestinians in 1920 to force the hand of the Western Powers then meeting to discuss the Zionist question and others. Jabotinsky was appointed to lead this 'Jewish Defence force' the Haganah, later to become Irgun and finally Likud.

Jabotinsky, 'Iron Wall' 1923

"Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are 500 years behind us, spiritually they do not have our endurance or our strength of will, but this exhausts all of the internal differences. We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile. This childish fantasy of our “Arabo-philes” comes from some kind of contempt for the Arab people, of some kind of unfounded view of this race as a rabble ready to be bribed in order to sell out their homeland for a railroad network."

Grin

Some smacking dove.

get over yourself. there is one democracy in the ME - ISrael. there is ONE modern economy in the M - ISRAEL. there is one country in the ME that doesnt preemptively attack others - ISRAEL. perhaps if you understood that the arabs and palestinians worst enemy is themselves and their utterly hopeless soceity and economy. Jordans Science minister himself bemoaned the fact that the arabs hadnt done anything scientific for 1000 years.

maybe they should stop shooting, hating and fighting and start learning, working and learning to get along. but no - they fight and the result is a whol string of crap-hole countries surrounding the one country that has a 21st century economy - ISRAEL.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Grey

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #83 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 7:27pm

Yeah a modern Democracy that creates a bantustan for Palestinians and treats its prisoners of conscience worse than Burma or Cuba.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1096744.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

After his 18 years of imprisonment including 11 in solitary Mordechai Vanunu has been under house arrest, been arrested and interrogated countless times and has been reimprisoned on two occasions. Once for six months once for three.

Civilised societies don't treat whistleblowers this harshly. That Israel has a thriving economy is hardly to its credit; considering the enormous amount of aid paid to it by the US and the enormous injections of funds coughed up by a large proportion of the rest of the Jewish diaspora.

"Get over yourself" For what? Knowing what I'm talking about? Keh!

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longweekend58

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #84 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 7:40pm

Grey wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 7:27pm:

Yeah a modern Democracy that creates a bantustan for Palestinians and treats its prisoners of conscience worse than Burma or Cuba.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1096744.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

After his 18 years of imprisonment including 11 in solitary Mordechai Vanunu has been under house arrest, been arrested and interrogated countless times and has been reimprisoned on two occasions. Once for six months once for three.

Civilised societies don't treat whistleblowers this harshly. That Israel has a thriving economy is hardly to its credit; considering the enormous amount of aid paid to it by the US and the enormous injections of funds coughed up by a large proportion of the rest of the Jewish diaspora.

"Get over yourself" For what? Knowing what I'm talking about? Keh!

I'll ask you to do the same as Greens-lose. Why dont you try complaining about the constant attacks on Israel by its neighbours, the bombing of school buses, the kidnap and murder of civilians? When I see equal air-time from you about those things then I will consider your opinion to have some credibiity. but until then, you are just like green: telling one side of the story and pretending it is the truth.

dead bombed children in israel. not accidents or collateral damage; not human shields or killed because the army put missle launchers in a kindergarten. DELIBERATELY TARGETTED.

over to you...

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Grey

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #85 - Sep 21^st, 2011 at 8:43pm

Run out of argument have you Longie? Well i'll pass on the invitation to run both sides of the issue. Suffice to say I do not support terrorism and I have pretty much equal contempt for Hamas Hezboullah and Likud. My people are the ordinary men and women on both sides of the fence.

Moshe and Munir are worth listening too.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2008/s2167985.htm

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longweekend58

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #86 - Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 8:05am

Grey wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 8:43pm:

Run out of argument have you Longie? Well i'll pass on the invitation to run both sides of the issue. Suffice to say I do not support terrorism and I have pretty much equal contempt for Hamas Hezboullah and Likud. My people are the ordinary men and women on both sides of the fence.

Moshe and Munir are worth listening too.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2008/s2167985.htm

thats all you had to say although i did mention 'equal air time'. one sentence about hamas and multiple lengthy posts about Israel. do u see my point? your 'supposed' equal contempt doesnt appear that equal.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #87 - Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 8:41am

Grey wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 7:27pm:

Yeah a modern Democracy that creates a bantustan for Palestinians and treats its prisoners of conscience worse than Burma or Cuba.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1096744.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

After his 18 years of imprisonment including 11 in solitary Mordechai Vanunu has been under house arrest, been arrested and interrogated countless times and has been reimprisoned on two occasions. Once for six months once for three.

Civilised societies don't treat whistleblowers this harshly. That Israel has a thriving economy is hardly to its credit; considering the enormous amount of aid paid to it by the US and the enormous injections of funds coughed up by a large proportion of the rest of the Jewish diaspora.

What you call a 'whistleblower', is what others would call a traitor.
And being a traitor in a country that has been attacked so many times, and been on a constant war footing for over 60 years surrounded by enemies, is not being in an enviable position.
Perhaps this traitor has never heard of the Official Secrets Act.
He should be content in the knowledge he would have been put up against a wall years ago and shot in most of the countries that surround Israel, if he had done the same to them.
But it's all a question of semantics really.
With a little bit of research, you will find Israel's foreign financial aid packages are quite minor whan compared to the GDP that Israel generates nowadays though it's exports.

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longweekend58

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #88 - Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 7:20pm

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 8:41am:

Grey wrote on Sep 21^st, 2011 at 7:27pm:

Yeah a modern Democracy that creates a bantustan for Palestinians and treats its prisoners of conscience worse than Burma or Cuba.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1096744.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

After his 18 years of imprisonment including 11 in solitary Mordechai Vanunu has been under house arrest, been arrested and interrogated countless times and has been reimprisoned on two occasions. Once for six months once for three.

Civilised societies don't treat whistleblowers this harshly. That Israel has a thriving economy is hardly to its credit; considering the enormous amount of aid paid to it by the US and the enormous injections of funds coughed up by a large proportion of the rest of the Jewish diaspora.

What you call a 'whistleblower', is what others would call a traitor.
And being a traitor in a country that has been attacked so many times, and been on a constant war footing for over 60 years surrounded by enemies, is not being in an enviable position.
Perhaps this traitor has never heard of the Official Secrets Act.
He should be content in the knowledge he would have been put up against a wall years ago and shot in most of the countries that surround Israel, if he had done the same to them.
But it's all a question of semantics really.
With a little bit of research, you will find Israel's foreign financial aid packages are quite minor whan compared to the GDP that Israel generates nowadays though it's exports.

even if you accept that Israel's treatment of this whistleblower was harsh it hardly amounts to a blanket condemnation fo the state. You could hardly call what we did to Lindy Chamberlain or that indian doctor even close to reasonable. every country has its appalling incidents but we dont call an entire bad as a result. yet where is the condemnatino of Libya, Syria, Egypt, Jordan etc with all its blatatn abuse of human rights?

nowhere!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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hawil

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Re: Australia's Position On Palestine UN Bid
Reply #89 - Sep 22^nd, 2011 at 8:10pm

GoddyofOz wrote on Sep 15^th, 2011 at 8:06pm:

Quote:

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, speaking on Wednesday, warned of dire consequences if the Palestinians went ahead.

"From the moment they pass a unilateral decision there will be harsh and grave consequences," he said

This is nothing but blatant sabre rattling. What are Israel going to do? Chuck a tantrem and withdraw from the UN? Lets see them try. If they aren't a member state of the UN, they do not abide by any UN sanctions. Lets see the U.S defend that.

As far as Australia is concerned, I would hope we would stay well out of it and instead focus on gaining our seat on the Security Council.

Australia will do whatever the USA asks it to do, because so far Australia has always done as asked, first by Britain and now by the USA.

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