Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Labor/Greens carbon tax (Read 1132 times)
culldav
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2020
Labor/Greens carbon tax
Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:25pm
 
We will introduce a carbon tax on the Australian people that will reduce carbon emissions, but it will not reduce the overall global temperature.

But I thought the premises of introducing a carbon tax was to reduce emissions and therefore reduce global temperature?

No, that not true; reducing Australia’s “small” carbon emissions footprint under the planned Labor/Greens/Independent carbon tax “will not” reduce the planets temperature.

But if reducing the carbon emissions is not going to reduce the global temperature, then why are Australians accepting a carbon tax?    

Maybe this is the question we should be sending those employees at the Indian call centres who are being taught Australians are dumb and backward?  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
Back to top
« Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:30pm by culldav »  
 
IP Logged
 
Dnarever
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 59372
Here
Gender: male
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #1 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:41pm
 
What impact will it have if we take the Liberal solution of continuing to exponentially increase out carbon footprint?

If you consider that with around 200 countries in the world us producing around  2% means that we are currently producing about 200% more than we can legitimately claim to be reasonable - the share of 4 countries is currently produced by us alone and our current situation unchanged would see that increase.

I do not think it arguable that our current position is not unreasonable and unsustainable.

I see the argument that we can not effectively reduce world temperatures by our self as being a justification to continue increasing our contribution towards the increase of world temperature as being significantly flawed in logic.

We can’t fix it our self so we should just make it worse instead = logical not.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Swagman
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Beware of cheap imitations......

Posts: 15095
Illawarra NSW
Gender: male
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #2 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 4:26pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:41pm:
If you consider that with around 200 countries in the world us producing around  2% means that we are currently producing about 200% more than we can legitimately claim to be reasonable - the share of 4 countries is currently produced by us alone and our current situation unchanged would see that increase.


Maybe you should volunteer to pay double income tax  and donate the extra tax towards green energy projects if you feel so strongly about it? Shocked  (assuming you pay tax that is  Cheesy)

Dnarever wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:41pm:
I see the argument that we can not effectively reduce world temperatures by our self as being a justification to continue increasing our contribution towards the increase of world temperature as being significantly flawed in logic.


Really?  So if AUST goes it alone and hamstrings its own industry and drives its businesses overseas all because of Greeny treehugging idealogy and then the sky still falls in because no body else does .........we will be broke, unemployed but have a clear conscience  Sad Sad  

Dnarever wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:41pm:
We can’t fix it our self so we should just make it worse instead = logical not.


Flogging a dead horse is not too logical either...... Shocked Shocked

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
culldav
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2020
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #3 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 5:19pm
 
Unless the 3 biggest polluters on the planet:  China, India & the USA are locked into a carbon reduction target, then its flawed logic to suggest that the Australian people should be getting a carbon tax put on them, because the reduction of Australia’s carbon footprint will not be enough to reduce global temperature.  

Excuse my cynicism and basic analogy, but what you are suggesting is like Australia chucking a bucket of water on a raging house fire, and then pretending its going to make a difference controlling the fire - meanwhile China, India and the USA are sanding their with a fire hose refusing to use it.

Gillard/Greens/Independents need to explain to me why they are hitting the Australian people with a carbon tax that will not reduce the planets temperature?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Swagman
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Beware of cheap imitations......

Posts: 15095
Illawarra NSW
Gender: male
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #4 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 5:50pm
 
culldav wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 5:19pm:
Gillard/Greens/Independents need to explain to me why they are hitting the Australian people with a carbon tax that will not reduce the planets temperature?


It's just wealth redistribution by stealth.

The objective of socialism.  A wolf in sheep clothing.

A tax on an invisible gas, essential to life.  It's a breathing tax. Angry Angry Angry
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
culldav
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2020
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #5 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 6:45pm
 
As far as I’m concerned, the fat arsed maggot can fart in a bottle and tax herself when she wants a whiff, because the only ones she is fooling are the Labor stooges who don’t know any better and who cannot think beyond the square.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dsmithy70
Gold Member
*****
Offline


ire futuis vobismetipsis

Posts: 13147
Newy
Gender: male
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #6 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 7:00pm
 
Tony Abbott has the same reduction target as policy.
Tony Abbott has not told us how much his plan will cost.
The point you seem to be missing/ignoring is you will pay something either way.
At the point of sale which you have some control over or thru taxation which you'll never quantify.
It wont be a direct tax it will cost you in the forms of decreased services, money that could be used for other things(improving your quality of life) diverted to this goal, smaller surpluses or even deficits.
So you can have a fair idea how much and a level of control or live in denial believing you are paying nothing.
Back to top
 

REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento
 
IP Logged
 
matty
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 11055
East Sydney
Gender: male
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #7 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:26pm
 
What I want to know is, if it is so pivotal, and it's going to be as great and world-changing as they profess, then:
1. Why are no other countries imposing one?
2. Why did Julia say "There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead"?
3. Why did Wayne Swan say that it was a "hysterical allegation" being made by the Coalition?
Back to top
 

BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!
 
IP Logged
 
Deborahmac09
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 1619
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #8 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:32pm
 
Quote:
Factbox: Carbon taxes around the world

As debate intensifies over the federal government's carbon scheme, SBS looks at how carbon taxes work and which countries have introduced them.


What is a carbon tax and why is it being proposed?

The government plans to tax the carbon pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels, including coal and petroleum. A carbon tax puts a price on the carbon released when fossil fuels are burned. It is designed to include in the price of fossil fuel use the cost of the environmental damage it causes.

By increasing the price of using fossil fuels, supporters of a carbon tax argue it will create incentives to develop and use technologies that reduce carbon emissions, including fuel-efficient cars and renewable energy sources. Supporters say that taxing carbon will make individuals take into account the price of using fossil fuels in their personal decisions, including the cars they buy and the appliances they use.

For emitters, using carbon-based fuels would eventually cost more than reducing their use of fossil fuels.

How does a carbon tax work?

With a carbon price, the government taxes each tonne of carbon pollution released when fossil fuels are burned. The carbon price is a tax rate set by the government.

The Gillard government has not announced the price it will set on carbon pollution. However it has said the price will be fixed for a period of three to five years.

The tax will include the stationary energy sector, the transport sector, and the industrial processes sector. Agriculture will not be included in the scheme.

How is it different to an emissions trading system?

The federal government plans to move to an emissions trading system three to five years after a carbon tax is introduced.

Emissions trading is different to a carbon tax. In an emissions trading system, a central authority sets a cap on how much a pollutant such as CO2 may be emitted. The cap is allocated to companies in the form of emissions permits, which give them the right to emit a certain amount of the pollutant. Firms are required to hold a number of permits equivalent to their emissions.

The total number of permits issued to all companies cannot exceed the emissions cap, limiting total emissions to that level. Firms that need to increase their emission permits must buy them from companies that require fewer permits. This means permit buyers are paying a charge for polluting more, while sellers are being rewarded for reducing emissions.

Which other countries have a carbon tax?

Finland: introduced the world’s first carbon tax in 1990. Initially the tax exempted few industries and fuels.

In 2010 Finland’s price on carbon was €20 per tonne of CO2. Natural gas has a reduced tax rate, while peat was exempted between 2005-2010.

Taxation of liquid fuels and coal takes account of both their energy content and carbon dioxide emissions, and also emissions into the local environment that have adverse health effects.

The Netherlands: the Netherlands levies a general fuel tax on all fossil fuels. Fuels used as raw materials are not subject to the tax. Tax rates are based on both the energy and carbon contents of fuels.

Sweden: in 1991 Sweden enacted a carbon tax.

With Sweden raising prices on fossil fuels since enacting the carbon tax, it cut its carbon pollution by 9 per cent between 1990 and 2006.

India: a levy on coal producers was introduced in 2010. India expected to raise $535 million from the tax, the first measure used by the subcontinent to reduce companies’ use of fossil fuels.

Norway: in 1991 Norway introduced a tax on carbon. However its carbon emissions increased by 43m per cent per capita between 1991 and 2008.

Denmark: enacted in 1992, Denmark’s carbon tax applies to all energy users, which includes the industrial sector. But industrial companies are taxed differently depending on the process the energy is used for, and whether or not the company has entered into a voluntary agreement to apply energy efficiency measures.

Denmark’s per capita carbon dioxide emissions were nearly 15% lower in 2005 than in 1990.

Switzerland: a carbon incentive tax was introduced in Switzerland in 2008. It includes all fossil fuels, unless they are used for energy. Swiss companies can be exempt from the tax if they participate in the country’s emissions trading system.

Overall, greenhouse gas emissions in Switzerland remained stable between 1990 and 2007.

Ireland: a tax on oil and gas came into effect in 2010. It was estimated to add around €43 to filling a 1000 litre oil tank and €41 to the average annual gas bill.

Costa Rica: in 1997 Costa Rica enacted a tax on carbon pollution, set at 3.5 per cent of the market value of fossil fuels. The revenue raised from this goes into a national forest fund which pays indigenous communities for protecting the forests around them.

Quebec, Boulder - The Canadian province of Quebec, and the US city of Boulder have also implemented carbon taxes.


http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1492651/factbox-carbon-taxes-around-the-world
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Maqqa
Gold Member
*****
Offline


14% - that low?!

Posts: 16000
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #9 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:39pm
 
Dnarever wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:41pm:
What impact will it have if we take the Liberal solution of continuing to exponentially increase out carbon footprint?

If you consider that with around 200 countries in the world us producing around  2% means that we are currently producing about 200% more than we can legitimately claim to be reasonable - the share of 4 countries is currently produced by us alone and our current situation unchanged would see that increase.

I do not think it arguable that our current position is not unreasonable and unsustainable.

I see the argument that we can not effectively reduce world temperatures by our self as being a justification to continue increasing our contribution towards the increase of world temperature as being significantly flawed in logic.

We can’t fix it our self so we should just make it worse instead = logical not.



Point 1
PROVE IT!!


Point 2
PROVE IT!!

Also note there's only 192 signatories to the Kyoto Protocol so I don't see how 200 countries will only produce 2%. Even if we group the EU it still does not come up the the numbers you are proposing.


Point 3
Your claim of "flawed logic" is based on your assertion in Point 1 which you can't prove


Point 4
Make what worse?

If you don't know in percentage terms what humans are contributing to the carbon cycle then how do you know WE are making it worse

And how can 1.35% contribution be "making it worse"??
Back to top
 

Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number
 
IP Logged
 
cods
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 88048
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #10 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 10:42pm
 
I read where NZ is backing away from their commitment..

I find it hard to believe Ireland a country tettering on bankruptcy has a carbon tax..... they were selling two houses for the price of one...
Greece is a minefield.. with France and portugal and Spain right behind..

and they want to impose CARBON TAX... its a joke it really is..the straw that broke the camels back I would say..

whats that old saying about getting blood out of a stone???
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
progressiveslol
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17029
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #11 - Sep 27th, 2011 at 5:54am
 
Why these Bills should be resisted, rejected or replealed


By Viv Forbes, Carbon Sense Coaltion

There is no evidence that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere controls the climate. However there is strong evidence that global temperature controls the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere via the absorption or emission of this soluble gas from the vast oceans.

There is no evidence that the current gentle warm era is unusual or harmful. There have been warmer periods in the past and all have encouraged a profusion of animal and plant life.

In the broad sweep of natural climate change it is clear that life on earth has far more to fear from global cooling than from global warming. It is the ice ages that cause massive extinctions. In the long history of life on earth, global warming has never been a threat to the biosphere.

There is significant evidence that solar cycles have a notable effect on global temperature and rainfall. The sun, the clouds, the oceans, volcanic dust and the winds create our climate with its cycles, seasons, tides, unpredictable variations and occasional extremes. Carbon dioxide exists as a tiny trace of invisible gas in the atmosphere (1 part of CO2 per 2,500 parts of other gases). It exerts a steady, moderating, but very tiny influence on global temperatures.

The effect of a carbon tax on carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will not be measurable. The effect of a carbon tax on the sun, clouds, oceans, volcanoes and winds will be zero. Therefore a carbon tax will have no measurable effect on global climate, even if every country in the world introduced it.

Many of the climate scares, such as loss of corals and rising sea levels, are inventions or exaggerations. Corals have survived for millions of years, have adapted to rising and falling sea levels, and have moved north and south as earth’s temperatures changed. Sea levels have been rising slowly for thousands of years, long before steam engines were invented, and current changes are very gentle and not unusual. In fact recent credible studies show sea levels are gently falling.

It is nonsense to call carbon dioxide a pollutant. It is better called “The Gas of Life” as it provides the major source of food for all plant life which in turn supports all animal life. Current levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are lower than they have been many times in the past and significantly lower than is optimal for all life.

Every molecule of carbon dioxide released by burning coal today was once part of the atmosphere at a time of prolific growth of the huge forests that formed the coal in the first place, millions of years ago. Burning the coal just recycles the natural carbon and other minerals back to the biosphere where the next generation of plants can use them. Coal is as natural and “green” as the forests from which it came.

Mankind does clearly affect his environment with land clearing, cultivation, irrigation, sewerage, garbage, roads, railways, dams and his massive cities of bitumen, concrete, sky scrapers, schools, hospitals, houses and heat generating machines and appliances. The heat from the activities of people and their machines does cause minor but measurable urban heating. Man (and woman) also creates real pollution with smoke, dust and chemical gases, and pollutes waterways and landfill with various waste products. All sensible people want to see a reduction in this real pollution, but carbon dioxide plays no part in it, and a carbon tax will not reduce it.

Carbon dioxide has zero ability to produce heat in itself. It does not burn like carbon, coal or wood � it is a harmless and invisible gaseous by-product of burning these fuels. It is not a source of radioactive heat like uranium. All it can do is redirect some of the heat exchanged between the sun and the earth.

Carbon dioxide is generally transparent to most heat and light radiation. However, during the day, carbon dioxide in the atmosphere can temporarily interrupt and redirect some of the heat flowing between the sun and the earth (generally keeping the surface cooler than it would have otherwise been). During the night, carbon dioxide again interrupts some of the heat escaping from the surface to space, thus keeping nights warmer than they would have otherwise been. Water vapour has a similar but far greater effect. The net effect on average global temperature is negligible and beneficial to the comfort of life on the surface of the earth.

Earth’s climate is always changing and cycles of heating and cooling have been a regular feature of earth history for as long as geological and historical records exist. To suggest that man is suddenly causing every extreme weather event is just superstitious scare mongering.

To believe that a tax on some Australian businesses which emit carbon dioxide will have the slightest effect on global climate is ludicrous.

continue
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
progressiveslol
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17029
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #12 - Sep 27th, 2011 at 5:56am
 
It is obvious that the glib targets for 5-20% cut in carbon dioxide emissions by 2020 (in spite of rising populations) can NEVER be actually achieved without a massive depression of economic activity. A fake reduction may be achieved by forcing Australian companies to pay billions of dollars to foreign carbon sharps for promises to cut their production of carbon dioxide. In most cases, this will NOT result in any reduction in emissions - at best it will produce largely worthless promises to not increase emissions in future. At worst it will be a massive fraud on the Australian taxpayers and consumers. In all cases, it will see a massive transfer of Australian wealth to foreign countries for zero climate benefit.

We are told that most people and businesses will be compensated and thus will not feel any effects from the carbon tax. The whole purpose of the tax is to punish people who use carbon fuels, so they use less of them. If it does not hurt consumers, they will not change their behaviour and the whole thing becomes an exercise in redistributing wealth and enhancing the power of the bureaucracy.

It is false to claim that Australia lags the world in waging war on carbon. The Kyoto Protocol is dead. Only western Europe and New Zealand are moving with us on this suicidal path - they lead the energy lemmings. Perhaps New Zealand hopes to cope without too much pain by using more of their abundant hydro and geothermal energy while most European countries have access to significant hydro, nuclear or geothermal energy.

Australia has NONE of these non-carbon energy sources ready to start producing electricity. Nuclear is feasible but politically unacceptable. It would take a decade at least to get political and regulatory approval, and probably as long again for construction, so nuclear is not really in our energy equation. And unlike Iceland and New Zealand, Australia has no easy geothermal sites � if we find any, it will be decades before it could make significant contributions to the electricity grid. We do produce hydro power, but the chances of getting the Greens to approve a dam anywhere, let alone in more mountainous country with gradients suitable for hydro power, is very low. Moreover, our best hydro sites are either already developed, or are sterilised in heritage areas and national parks.

Therefore Australia’s current and future energy needs depend solely on coal and gas, the very fuels that Bob Brown’s green extremists want to tax, regulate and litigate to death. It is an act of national economic suicide to attempt to destroy our ability to generate low cost energy.

The computerised climate models so beloved by the UN IPCC and the CSIRO have never made successful predictions and there is no reason to believe they will ever mimic the complexity of factors affecting climate at any point.

Even if the warming projections from the scare forecasters were accepted, the minor changes in temperature envisaged are small compared to the actual daily and annual variations in temperature experienced at any point on earth. The difference in average temperature between Brisbane and Sydney or Melbourne is more than the worst global warming scares. The temperature change that occurs while we eat breakfast is probably greater than any global warming that could be caused by doubling carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The idea that laughably small temperature changes will somehow do untold damage to life on earth is ludicrous.

It is obvious that there is no consensus on the science supporting the alarmist climate models. A very large and growing group of scientists with relevant knowledge or experience is actively challenging the alarmist models. They will not go away.

Wind and solar energy can never provide reliable electric power at a cost the consumers can afford or Australian businesses can use in a competitive world. They provide unreliable and intermittent power, at a high cost, and also need massive investment in backup carbon-based power facilities and new transmission lines.

All spending on carbon geo-sequestration should cease. This is an enormously costly program to do something that is unnecessary and which will waste much of our precious energy resources and community savings.

Our fleets of cars, tractors, trucks, trains, ships, dozers and aircraft are not going to run on sunbeams and sea breezes � they need coal, diesel, petrol or gas to keep moving. If they stop moving, our cities will starve in a few days.

Subsidising and mandating the use of ethanol produced from food crops is a foolish policy with no benefits for the climate or the environment.

The suggestion that emissions from farm livestock are net additions of carbon to the atmosphere is just plain wrong. Every atom of carbon emitted by livestock (in carbon dioxide or methane) is taken from the grass and grains the animal eats, which in turn is taken from the atmosphere by growing plants using photosynthesis and energy from the sun. Methane that returns to the atmosphere soon oxidises back to carbon dioxide which is then taken up by plants. It is a perpetual carbon cycle that has been going on since life began. Earth survived emissions from the vast mobs of ancient auroch cattle which roamed Europe, the bison and antelopes of the American grassland, the wild herds of grazing animals which roamed free over all the African plains, and the kangaroos and bushfires which regularly harvested the Australian grasslands.
>>
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
progressiveslol
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17029
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #13 - Sep 27th, 2011 at 5:56am
 
In the carbon cycle, trees are just like animals - temporary storehouses for carbon. They are not some special stand-alone life form to be worshipped unconditionally and subsidised thoughtlessly. Every molecule of carbon dioxide that is “captured” when the tree is growing creates the leaves, bark and wood and is stored there. While growing, the tree will shed bark, leaves and branches. These will fall to the ground and decompose, releasing the carbon to the soil, to bacteria or back to the atmosphere as carbon dioxide. Eventually, the tree itself will die or be used for timber structures. Eventually all of the tree will rot or be burnt and every carbon atom that was taken from the atmosphere will be end up back in the atmosphere. The same cyclic process occurs for all plant life, including food crops, grasses and algae. All that varies is the time for the complete cycle to occur.

The criticism that Australia leads the world in per capita emissions of carbon dioxide is a silly conclusion from nonsense calculations. Australians are very large suppliers of coal, minerals, food and fibre to consumers all over the world. We utilise large equipment fleets and have a massive transport network to move this food, fibre, energy and minerals to our own capitals and to world consumers. Those consumers should be the ones responsible for the emissions generated by a handful of productive Australians to produce our flood of raw materials. Moreover our grasslands, rivers, oceans and soils are net absorbers of carbon dioxide. A fair and more complete calculation would probably show that Australia is a net absorber of carbon dioxide.

There is no justification for Australia to seek the role of the Pied Piper leading a diminishing band of climate lemmings over the cliffs of alarm onto the hard rocks of reality far below. The Europeans will rue the day they spent their savings on energy chimeras.

http://icecap.us/index.php
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
progressiveslol
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17029
Re: Labor/Greens carbon tax
Reply #14 - Sep 27th, 2011 at 6:14am
 

The Carbon Tax Bills -
Please Abandon
These Foolish and Destructive Bills.


http://carbon-sense.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/submission-carbon-tax-bills.p...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print