Australian Politics Forum - Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl

Jibreel

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #30 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 1:05am

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 11:37pm:

There does not seem to be any limit on marriage in the Bible:

And yet most people in the West find child marriages repulsive. Could it be because they have no Uswa Hasana (an excellent model of conduct) who fudged a child?

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 11:37pm:

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

Not an Uswa Hasana.

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 11:37pm:

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

Not an Uswa Hasana.

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 11:37pm:

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

Not an Uswa Hasana.

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 11:37pm:

The rocker Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year-old cousin legally in the US state of Arkansas.

Certainly not an Uswa Hasana.

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 11:37pm:

People seem to find it plausible that a 13 year-old Juliet wanted to marry Romeo.

Who cares?

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 11:46pm:

European Christians considered marrying 8 year-old girls acceptable!

Yes, that's right! Note the past tense. They CONSIDERED, not CONSIDER. The Shari'ah is Allah's laws, and everything else is man-made laws which evidently evolve with our morality. The world has moved on, but unfortunately Islam mostly has not.

And what is the reason why it too cannot evolve?

Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi:
Quote:

Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age.

Sheikh Mohamed Ben Abderrahman Al-Maghraoui:
Quote:

The marriage of nine-year-old girls is not forbidden because according to the Hadith (the Prophet Mohammed's sayings), Mohammed married Aisha when she was only seven-years-old and he consummated his union when she was nine.

Imam Sani:
Quote:

Child marriage in Islam is permissible. In the Koran there is no specific age of marriage...[If the government imposed new laws against child marriage] There will be violent conflict from the Muslims, saying that 'no, we will not accept this, we'd rather die than accept something which is not a law from Allah.'

Shaikh ibn Baz:
Quote:

...If she is married without her permission, by threat or coercion, then the marriage is not valid. The only exeption is in the case of the father and his daughter who is less than nine years of age. There is no harm if he gets her married while she is less than nine years old, according to the correct opinion. This is based on the messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) marrying Aisha without her consent when she was less than nine years old, as is stated in authentic Hadith..

Mufti Fazlul Haque Amini:
Quote:

Banning child marriage will cause challenging the marriage of the holy prophet of Islam, who also married minor Ayesha, when she was just eight years old. The new law [seeking to ban child marriages] initiated by the current government [of Bangladesh] will put the moral character of the prophet into controversy and challenge. Islam permits child marriage and it will not be tolerated if any ruler will ever try to touch this issue in the name of giving more rights to women.

wikiislam(.)net/wiki/Contemporary_Pedophilic_Islamic_Marriages

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falah

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #31 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 1:36am

So when exactly does a girl become a woman? (If you wish to ignore the signs that God Almighty in His wisdom gave us with their menstruation)

...and as for those who constantly refer to the Iranians leaders, I have said before that claiming that the Iranian Twelver Shi-ite clerics speak for Islam is like saying the Mormons speak for Christianity

The Twelver Shi-ite leaders of Iran are not Muslim.

One of the greatest mainstream scholars of Islam, Ibn Taymiyah, said of the person who follows the Twelver Shi-ite deviant beliefs:

"...there is no doubt that he is a disbeliever, because he is rejecting what it says in the Quran in more than one place..."

Saudi scholar, Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid says of Iran's Twelver Shi-ites:

"They hold beliefs and principles which are contrary to those of the people of Islam, such as the following:

They exaggerate about their imams, claiming that they are infallible, and they devote many acts of worship to them such as supplication, seeking help, offering sacrifices and circumambulating their tombs. This is major polytheism which God tells us (in the Quran) will not be forgiven. These acts of polytheism are committed by their scholars and common folk alike, without anyone among them objecting to that...

...They believe in taqiyah (dissimulation) which means showing outwardly something other than what one feels inside. In fact this is lying and hypocrisy and skill in deceiving people. This is not something that they do at times of fear; rather they regard use of taqiyah as a religious duty for minor and major matters, at times of fear and times of safety...And there are other corrupt beliefs..."

The scholars of the Saudi Standing Committee for Issuing Fatwas were asked: Is the (Twelver) Imam Shi’ah way part of Islam?...

Answer: "The (Twelver) Imami Shi’ah sect is a fabricated sect that has been (wrongly) introduced into Islam. We advise you to read the book al-Khutoot al-‘Areedah and Mukhtasar al-Tuhfah al-Ithna ‘Ashariyyah and Minhaaj al-Sunnah by Shaykh al-Islam [Ibn Taymiyah], which will explain a lot of their (unlawful) innovations."

Abdulazeez ibn Abdullah ibn Baz (Mufti of Saudi Arabia), Abdurrazzaq Afeefi and Abdullah ibn Ghadyan.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (2/377).

Famous scholar, Shaykh Ibn Jibreen, said of the Shi-ite sect that they are:

"undoubtedly disbelievers...They commit clear polytheism in their exaggerations about Ali and his descendents and in their praying to them alongside God. This is stated clearly in their books, where they exaggerate about them and describe them in terms that are only befitting for the God Almighty. We have also heard them doing this in their tapes"

From Al-Lu’lu’ al-Makeen min Fataawa Fadeelat al-Shaykh Ibn Jibreen, p. 39

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Jibreel

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #32 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 1:37am

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 8:23pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 8:19pm:

Quote:

And for those who say that 9 is too young for marriage I would remind you that there are plenty of cases like this

I hope you are not saying a 9yr old isn't too young for marriage.

Perhaps for most women it is too young - some women don't hit puberty till they are 14.

There is nothing morally wrong with marrying someone who has reached puberty (as long as they consent)- even if the Australian government sets an arbitary age limit of 18.

I should have read the first page earlier. I thought you were defending child marriages from an historic perspective, but you're actually advocating pedophilia today.

Of course there is something wrong. Humans are born with reasoning skills. We don't need nature, something which is imperfect, to guide our morality.

The youngest mother in the world had her menarche at age 8 months. According to your logic, she's ready for sex... Absolutely disgusting.

en.wikipedia(.)org/wiki/Lina_Medina

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falah Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3162	Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl Reply #33 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 8:25am ^obviously a very unusual case, and yes common sense should prevail when this obviously a medical condition rather than the norm. But if most of women reach puberty by 11/12 - and most women in history have been married around this age, why is it suddenly 18 years-old that is acceptable?
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #34 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 12:06pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 10:18pm:

Quote:

What about the saudi child brides Annie?
One of the 5 pillars of Islam is Hajj where do you go for that?

Erm...Saudi Arabia. What did I win?

Quote:

You did not answer my hypothetical question-

Pardon me. It won't happen again.

Quote:

You have been married twice,both your husbands have died happy with you which means you can enter Paradise.
Which husband do you get in the afterlife the first or the second?

Um, first one? no wait. Is this a trick question?

Quote:

Dont give me "it will be allah's will"

I wouldn't dream of it, sir.

Quote:

tell me which one you will share with all those houris from the wisdom in Islamic texts?

I don't even know my own name anymore.

Quote:

The Yemeni clerics are saying if you oppose child brides you are an apostate!

Uh-oh.

Quote:

I like the statutory rape laws in the west that throw grown men in jail if they have sex with a minor.

Yeah those suspended sentences are a real deterrent.

Quote:

Its funny how the muslim men think child brides are OK yet the muslim women dont agree with this crap i wonder if a woman can change anything in Islam.

Yeah, all the Muslim men I know oppose child brides, but I'm sure you know better. You seem to know everything.

(not a compliment)

Yes Hajj does involve going to Saudi Arabia you win nothing because you had nothing to say about the saudi child brides.

Islam is clear if your husband dies unhappy with you its off to the hellfire which Allah says your skin will be roasted through then replaced so you can enjoy the agony all over again.
Its a harsh punishment for a finite crime.
http://quran.com/4/56

From Paradise you will hear those in the hellfire calling out for water to be poured upon them,How can you enjoy Paradise while hearing those in agony in the hellfire?
http://quran.com/7/50

So which husband do you get if they both die happy with you does allah allow you to take turns with both of them?
How can this be a trick question when Allah says he has perfected Islam in sura 5:3?
Quote:

This day i have perfected for you your religion

http://quran.com/5/3
The Quran is clear with the rewards in the impossible afterlife for men did Mohammad forget a few important details for women in the afterlife,does that mean Islam is not perfect as allah claimed in 5:3?

If you are a sunni then the punishment for apostasy should be very clear,how can you stop these child brides when clerics say those who oppose them are apostates?
Are the clerics saying those who oppose child brides are NOT muslims?
http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article33440.ece

I am not happy with suspended sentences for guilty people,Does the statutory rape law say a female under 16 is incapable of consenting to sex?

Mohammad married a 6yo who he had sex with when she was 9, how many times does the Quran say to follow the example Mohammad set?

If these child brides were common back in those days why was Mohammad's first wife Khadija in her 40's when Mo was around 25 when they married?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #35 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 12:29pm

You do realise you're starting to annoy me, right?

Let's set the record straight (and I am speaking for myself, not Islam so don't throw links contradicting me - these are my personal beliefs).

I am anti-marriage with children. I would have thought my condemnation of child marriage in Saudi Arabia would have been obvious, but I also understand some people need a little more help than others.

I am married to a Muslim man who has never abused me or tried to change me, though we disagree on a lot of things regarding religion (child marriage is not one of them).

I don;'t believe a woman goes to hell if her husband goes to sleep displeased with her.

Did I forget anything?

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I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #36 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 3:51pm

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 11:37pm:

Catholicism teaches that a 99 year-old man married a 12 year-old girl!

Quote:

When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

Note: That article on Catholic Encyclopaedia obtains its information from early
Christian writing including apocryphal writings.

There does not seem to be any limit on marriage in the Bible:

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

The rocker Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year-old cousin legally in the US state of Arkansas.

People seem to find it plausible that a 13 year-old Juliet wanted to marry Romeo.

Two points to look at in that falah....
1) 40 years is very very old for a first marriage in those days, and 90 is an incredible life span for a 'post-flood' bible figure (I think someone might have mis-translated the ages)

2) If Mary was 12 or 14 at the time of the choosing of candidates, and the Annunciation took place two years later, than that would make Mary 14 or 16 at the time of the wedding......otherwise it wasn't a Virgin Birth.

3) And as for all the marriages you listed in the other post, bear in mind that all through out Medieval times, it was quite common for rich and powerful families to arrange marriages between children at young ages, and the married couple may not have ever met until they were grown....

Some parts of Ireland carried out similar 'weddings' up until recently, the couple would be married at, say 10 or 12 years of age, and each spouse would live with their own parents until 16 or 18.......paper wedding only...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #37 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 7:43pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 19^th, 2011 at 12:29pm:

You do realise you're starting to annoy me, right?

Let's set the record straight (and I am speaking for myself, not Islam so don't throw links contradicting me - these are my personal beliefs).

I am anti-marriage with children. I would have thought my condemnation of child marriage in Saudi Arabia would have been obvious, but I also understand some people need a little more help than others.

I am married to a Muslim man who has never abused me or tried to change me, though we disagree on a lot of things regarding religion (child marriage is not one of them).

I don;'t believe a woman goes to hell if her husband goes to sleep displeased with her.

Did I forget anything?

If you are speaking for yourself instead of Islam does that mean you are picking and choosing which parts of Islam to follow (Quran2:85) which means allah is calling you a hypocrite in the Quran.

When the Quran mentions unbelievers and hypocrites who are the hypocrites and do these hypocrites end up in the hellfire?

If the clerics are saying those who oppose child brides are apostates (not muslims) do you think this gives people a good impression of Islam?

I did not say anything about going to sleep with your husband displeased with you i said if you die,why dont you ask your imam for an answer on that question,i bet he says dont ask questions its gods will.

If you find me annoying then you know how i feel when muslims claim Mohammad was the perfect man-
Mohammad was a white guy who owned black slaves
Mohammad had a coptic christian sex slave called Maria who gave him his only son Ibrahim.
Mohammad married Aisha when she was 6, porked her when she was 9.
Mohammad scored Juwariya as a wife on the same day he did a surprise attack on her tribe,she was already married her husband was killed on the same day Mo married her.
Mohammad scored Safiyya as a wife after ordering the torture and death of her husband so he could steal her tribes wealth.
Mohammad robbed the trade caravans that passed between Syria and Arabia, he was a highway robber.
Mohammad said Allah should have 20% of all war booty.

What makes you think Mohammad was not a pretender?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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falah Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3162	Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl Reply #38 - Oct 19^th, 2011 at 7:59pm Posts containing crude language will not be dignified with answers.
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Adamant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1892 Brisbane	Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl Reply #39 - Oct 20^th, 2011 at 1:27pm Falah, forget about what was written years ago and who allowed what back then. Do you as an individual believe a man say twenty years of age be allowed to marry a girl of 9 if she has started to menstruate? Just yes or no would suffice.
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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #40 - Oct 28^th, 2011 at 11:09am

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 8:23pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 8:19pm:

Quote:

And for those who say that 9 is too young for marriage I would remind you that there are plenty of cases like this

I hope you are not saying a 9yr old isn't too young for marriage.

Perhaps for most women it is too young - some women don't hit puberty till they are 14.

There is nothing morally wrong with marrying someone who has reached puberty (as long as they consent)- even if the Australian government sets an arbitary age limit of 18.

Nothing though that a good hanging wouldn't fix eh.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #41 - Oct 28^th, 2011 at 1:26pm

falah wrote on Oct 18^th, 2011 at 10:36pm:

While Islam does not permit sex prior to puberty, the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament does permit sex with 3 year-olds!

Numbers 31:17-18

Quote:

17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

...and how do the Talmudic Rabbis interpret the words "girl who has never slept with a man"?

Quote:

Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her....

A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir.And sages say, "Three years and one day old."
And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman...

The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of Moses to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children:

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known a man by sleeping with him.(Num 31:17).
[This] refers to her who has slept with a man as well as her who is suitable for intercourse, even when she has not slept with a man...
But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. From here R. Shimon b. Yohai used to say: a converted girl who became a proselyte in the age of less than three years and one day, is rendered fit to marry into the priesthood."

According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, Moses therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations."

the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament does permit sex with 3 year-olds!

Actually it doesn't....What it DOES say, is that a girl 3 years or younger shouldn't be considered not to be a virgin (for the purposes of marriage and dowry) IF she was molested....
It's about marriage laws, not about whether or not child abuse is ok....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl Reply #42 - Oct 28^th, 2011 at 3:23pm Times and attitudes have changed, but the attitudes of some posters here are pretty disgusting. Of course it's wrong to allow marriage of children in today's society. Morality is relative to societal norms - even in established religions.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #43 - Oct 28^th, 2011 at 7:09pm

muso wrote on Oct 28^th, 2011 at 3:23pm:

Times and attitudes have changed, but the attitudes of some posters here are pretty disgusting. Of course it's wrong to allow marriage of children in today's society.

Morality is relative to societal norms - even in established religions.

Of course....life spans have changed since those books were written...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Soren

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Re: Ayatollah Khomeni halal sex with 4 yo girl
Reply #44 - Oct 28^th, 2011 at 9:07pm

muso wrote on Oct 28^th, 2011 at 3:23pm:

Times and attitudes have changed, but the attitudes of some posters here are pretty disgusting. Of course it's wrong to allow marriage of children in today's society.

Morality is relative to societal norms - even in established religions.

For the Salafis like Abu and galah and Annie and millions like them, attitudes should not have changed from those of 7th century Mohammed. The only motivating force behind any resurgent Islam is that attitudes have changed since the 7th century and it is their task precisesly to stop and reverse those changes.

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