Australian Politics Forum - Australian Hypocrisy

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #105 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:08pm

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:03pm:

We cannot apply our standards for being able to tell how old a criminal is. Were it an Australian criminal whose age could not be determined he would be treated the same way, and there would be no obligation on the police to move heaven and earth to figure out who he is. No hypocrisy there. Remember the 'German' lass?

Calling the Indonesian Embassy is moving heaven and earth to you? Do you have a tractor sized phone or are you a 4 inch midget?

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:03pm:

Quote:

The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein

You keep confusing this for an issue of justice, which it is not. It is not out of justice that we let criminals walk free.

Minors, you mean... The rest are alleged criminals... I'm aware you don't see it as a matter of justice... It's clear its more like vigilantism to you.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #106 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:11pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:02pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:58pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:36pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Where are his parents?? By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents.

But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values.

But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!!

It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!! Are you sure you are an atheist?

Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere...

The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein, of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own...

Either he was in fact a minor when in Australia by our definition (no matter how hard he'd been working since he was 12), then he is a minor. That is the only relevant standard in this case that need primarily concern us.

What concern us is : how do we know what age he is when we get im off that boat without authentic proof of ID?

How many 13 year old do YOU know that look 18-19?

Or are you saying tha Australian governement officials knowingly treat obviously 13 boys as adults? If so, you should report it to the Attorney General.

Probably the authorities couldn't be bothered going any further that the wrist x-ray check... Didn't even call the Consulate or Embassy...

I'd bet it already has been reported to the Attorney General.

Do you rally think the Embassy would have their details all in the 'computer'??

Their parents don't even know where they are! THEY don't know where they are or what they are doing (pull the other one).

"officer, I went fishing one day and blow me down wiv a fevver, here I am in Ostraliya! Gimme asylum or a packet of fags. I am child."

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #107 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:12pm

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:11pm:

Do you rally think the Embassy would have their details all in the 'computer'??

Their parents don't even know where they are! THEY don't know where they are or what they are doing (pull the other one).

"officer, I went fishing one day and blow me down wiv a fevver, here I am in Ostraliya! Gimme asylum or a packet of fags. I am child."

Remember that if one of your nephews goes missing in Indonesia.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #108 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:00pm Clever. When my nephews get on boats in Darwin with a load of footballers, pretending not to know that they are heading for Bali for a good time, I will remember.
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barnaby joe Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1992 euchareena	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #109 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:16pm why would anybody go to bali on a vacation anyway. what a sh!t place.
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mozzaok

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #110 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:31am

barnaby joe wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:16pm:

why would anybody go to bali on a vacation anyway.

what a sh!t place.

Bali is amazingly beautiful, with wonderful people. If you are confusing the small strip at kuta designed to entertain the aussie yob element , then you are not really talking about the real bali, and the crassness of that area has developed because of aussies, not because of the balinese.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Amadd

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #111 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 2:38am

You just described capitalism in a nutshell there Mozz.

Is there any wonder that there are protests going on?

I'm not really understanding your short and narrow view there.
Trust me mate, I'm squinting very tightly in an attempt to understand what you're on about.

IMO, look up "Logan's Run". Download that and see if it fits with your POV.

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« Last Edit: Nov 5^th, 2011 at 2:45am by Amadd »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #112 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 6:48am

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:00pm:

Clever.
When my nephews get on boats in Darwin with a load of footballers, pretending not to know that they are heading for Bali for a good time, I will remember.

Are you comparing minors sailing 170 Kms in a fishing boat, into open water to dump 50+ asylum seekers on an uninhabited Island reef then sailing 170 Kms back with a footy piss up in Bali?

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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #113 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:10am

Quote:

Calling the Indonesian Embassy is moving heaven and earth to you?

You keep saying that, but I don't believe that the Indonesian authorities were unaware of the situation. I think your whole argument is based on not having a clue what actually happened and filling in the blanks with whatever suits your argument at the time.

Quote:

Minors, you mean... The rest are alleged criminals... I'm aware you don't see it as a matter of justice... It's clear its more like vigilantism to you.

No Helian, it's just that there is a subtle yet important distinction between whether the people smugglers are people smugglers and whether they are over 18. Both of these points I have raised before and you decided that your complaint was now about something else, only to change your mind back again.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #114 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:31am

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:10am:

Quote:

Calling the Indonesian Embassy is moving heaven and earth to you?

You keep saying that, but I don't believe that the Indonesian authorities were unaware of the situation. I think your whole argument is based on not having a clue what actually happened and filling in the blanks with whatever suits your argument at the time.

Quote:

Minors, you mean... The rest are alleged criminals... I'm aware you don't see it as a matter of justice... It's clear its more like vigilantism to you.

No Helian, it's just that there is a subtle yet important distinction between whether the people smugglers are people smugglers and whether they are over 18. Both of these points I have raised before and you decided that your complaint was now about something else, only to change your mind back again.

What I have always argued is that minors should be treated as minors in Australia under Australian law. What you have argued from page 1, in varying degrees of deflective rhetorical quality, is that "it doesn't matter, they're still with people smugglers" or "they're probably lying and not minors anyway".

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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #115 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:44am

Quote:

What I have always argued is that minors should be treated as minors in Australia under Australian law. What you have argued from page 1, in varying degrees of deflective rhetorical quality, is that "it doesn't matter, they're still with people smugglers" or "they're probably lying and not minors anyway".

What I argued was that they use minors as people smugglers because we are so lenient on them. Your argument assumes some kind of magical ability to know how old a foreign criminal is when they try to hide their identity.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #116 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:57am

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:44am:

Quote:

What I have always argued is that minors should be treated as minors in Australia under Australian law. What you have argued from page 1, in varying degrees of deflective rhetorical quality, is that "it doesn't matter, they're still with people smugglers" or "they're probably lying and not minors anyway".

What I argued was that they use minors as people smugglers because we are so lenient on them. Your argument assumes some kind of magical ability to know how old a foreign criminal is when they try to hide their identity.

Minors do not pilot those boats to Ashmore.

And, (as the lawyers for minors discovered when confirming the claims of their clients) few poor village kids, in the parts of Indonesia where these minors live, possess papers themselves... Probably because most are illiterate, I'd bet...

But at the very least now, you accept that minors are on board and your beef is now Australian leniency in the case of Indonesian minors.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49222 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #117 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 12:32pm Quote: Minors do not pilot those boats to Ashmore. So what?
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #118 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:23pm freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 12:32pm: Quote: Minors do not pilot those boats to Ashmore. So what? They are minors... Under Australian law they have not allegedly committed any crime... Those boats are piloted by adults.
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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #119 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:42pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 6:48am:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:00pm:

Clever.
When my nephews get on boats in Darwin with a load of footballers, pretending not to know that they are heading for Bali for a good time, I will remember.

Are you comparing minors sailing 170 Kms in a fishing boat, into open water to dump 50+ asylum seekers on an uninhabited Island reef then sailing 170 Kms back with a footy piss up in Bali?

I am illustrating how preposterous it is to pretend they had no idea of what was going on. These were not the first boat from that part of indonesia where they have lived all their lives.

Are you suggeting they had thought they were taking a load of Arabs, Persians and Afghans on a Club Med deep sea fishing trip?

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