Australian Politics Forum - Australian Hypocrisy

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #120 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:48pm

Soren wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:42pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 6:48am:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:00pm:

Clever.
When my nephews get on boats in Darwin with a load of footballers, pretending not to know that they are heading for Bali for a good time, I will remember.

Are you comparing minors sailing 170 Kms in a fishing boat, into open water to dump 50+ asylum seekers on an uninhabited Island reef then sailing 170 Kms back with a footy piss up in Bali?

I am illustrating how preposterous it is to pretend they had no idea of what was going on. These were not the first boat from that part of indonesia where they have lived all their lives.

Are you suggeting they had thought they were taking a load of Arabs, Persians and Afghans on a Club Med deep sea fishing trip?

I have been suggesting (for the last 8 pages) that under Australian law, if they have not reached the age of majority, then they are minors and are entitled, under Australian law, to be treated as minors, including the expectation that Australian authorities will make reasonable efforts in every case to verify their claims of minority.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #121 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:59pm How can you tell they are minors when you get them off the boats?
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #122 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 2:09pm Soren wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 1:59pm: How can you tell they are minors when you get them off the boats? Follow up on their claims of minority... Even if that means referring their case to asylum seeker action groups and charities.
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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #123 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 4:30pm

Quote:

I have been suggesting (for the last 8 pages) that under Australian law, if they have not reached the age of majority, then they are minors and are entitled, under Australian law, to be treated as minors, including the expectation that Australian authorities will make reasonable efforts in every case to verify their claims of minority.

And you have been missing the point for 8 pages - that is what Australian law already says and does.

Quote:

They are minors...

So why bring up the fact that they were not pilots? You seem to change the topic constantly rather than actually addressing any single issue, because you cannot make a valid argument on any single issue. Changing your mind is not the same thing as a rational argument.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #124 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 5:21pm

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 4:30pm:

Quote:

I have been suggesting (for the last 8 pages) that under Australian law, if they have not reached the age of majority, then they are minors and are entitled, under Australian law, to be treated as minors, including the expectation that Australian authorities will make reasonable efforts in every case to verify their claims of minority.

And you have been missing the point for 8 pages - that is what Australian law already says and does.

Law requires vigilant attention and consistent action to ensure it is upheld. If 9 - 10% of Indonesians in adult prisons are minors, the law is not being upheld.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 4:30pm:

Quote:

They are minors...

So why bring up the fact that they were not pilots? You seem to change the topic constantly rather than actually addressing any single issue, because you cannot make a valid argument on any single issue. Changing your mind is not the same thing as a rational argument.

Firstly it hardly detracts from my point (and distracts only those who seek to deflect the argument.

If you did not use deflective rhetoric, regarding minors being used as people smugglers, we wouldn't have to go there at all.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49222 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #125 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 7:46pm But they are being used as people smugglers. They are no different to a 16 year old helping to smuggle in half a tonne of heroin. Except more people die because of the people smugglers.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #126 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 7:55pm

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 7:46pm:

But they are being used as people smugglers. They are no different to a 16 year old helping to smuggle in half a tonne of heroin.

Except more people die because of the people smugglers.

They are used by people smugglers... Under Australian law, as minors they have not committed any crime by their actions.

Mate, half a tonne of heroin would kill many times more than people smuggling.
(Another deflection of yours, BTW)

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Uncle Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 688	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #127 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 8:13pm freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 7:46pm: They are no different to a 16 year old helping to smuggle in half a tonne of heroin. Except more people die because of the people smugglers. Sorry FD. I've got to go "call" on that one. Any links?
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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #128 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:46pm

A bunch of people just drowned due to the actions of people smugglers in a single incident.

How many people do you think die due to heroin in Australia each year?

Quote:

They are used by people smugglers... Under Australian law, as minors they have not committed any crime by their actions.

You can spin the law however you want. That does not mean that it is an issue of justice.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #129 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:55pm

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:46pm:

A bunch of people just drowned due to the actions of people smugglers in a single incident.

How many people do you think die due to heroin in Australia each year?

You raised it FD (although obviously as a deflection), you substantiate it...

I personally know of three people who died from heroin overdose and know of a few more than that.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 9:46pm:

Quote:

They are used by people smugglers... Under Australian law, as minors they have not committed any crime by their actions.

You can spin the law however you want. That does not mean that it is an issue of justice.

Australian law is not necessarily in the interests of justice, FD?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49222 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #130 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 10:02pm No Helian. Like I said, whether they are under 18 and whether they committed the crime are two separate issues, only one of which is about justice.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #131 - Nov 5^th, 2011 at 10:13pm

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2011 at 10:02pm:

No Helian. Like I said, whether they are under 18 and whether they committed the crime are two separate issues, only one of which is about justice.

It is highly unlikely that 14 year old boys take any active part in navigating a fishing boat 170 Kms in open water to Ashmore... We Australians have determined that they are not the alleged culprits of people smuggling due to their age (and no doubt due to high unlikelihood of their inability to control adults being smuggled to Ashmore). They, far more than likely did not smuggle anyone and, under Australian law, they did not commit a crime.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #132 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 6:39am

It seems this issue is gaining some more attention...

And highlights both the hypocrisy of Australia's demands for our own citizens with regard to the Indonesian justice system and the lack of our duty of care when dealing with theirs.

Quote:

...the jailing of the boys has sparked growing outrage among lawyers, diplomats, politicians and human rights activists in Australia and Indonesia, particularly when measured against Indonesia's treatment of a 14-year-old Lake Macquarie boy who appeared in court in Bali on Friday, accompanied by his father, and pleaded for leniency on drug offences.

Quote:

X-ray age test deemed useless

INTERNATIONAL experts warn that using wrist X-rays to determine age is unethical, inaccurate and potentially unlawful. To expose the fallibility of the police's preferred technique, Terry Fisher, from Fisher Dore Solicitors in Brisbane, commissioned expert analysis from England's former children's commissioner, Professor Al Aynsley-Green, who says the X-rays ''can never tell precisely the chronological age'' of an adolescent. It could only estimate skeletal maturity by bone density. The result could be two years too old or too young, Professor Aynsley-Green said. In some cases, the discrepancy can be five years. ''Serious injustice is possible,'' he said.

A United Nations child protection agency and the Australian Medical Association have called the test useless.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/plucked-from-poor-villages-boys-land-in-jail-2011...

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« Last Edit: Nov 6^th, 2011 at 6:54am by NorthOfNorth »

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #133 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 7:32am No points for guessing what the Australian white trash 10% would have to say if the Indonesian media made rich celebrities out of their minors on being repatriated after unjustly serving time in Australian adult prisons... Bali boy to talk after six-figure deal with Nine and 60 Minutes
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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #134 - Nov 6^th, 2011 at 7:55am

Quote:

It is highly unlikely that 14 year old boys take any active part in navigating a fishing boat 170 Kms in open water to Ashmore...

So what?

Quote:

We Australians have determined that they are not the alleged culprits of people smuggling due to their age

No Helian, that is not what we have determined. Their age does not change the facts, only the consequences.

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