Australian Politics Forum - Australian Hypocrisy

Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #60 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 5:44am

<<Yet it is we who lecture Asia on human rights and the special rights of children.

Then lock theirs in prisons with adult rapists and murderers.>>
.............................................................................

Yes, we are hypocritical, but then we learnt well from father America. Australia has an abysmal standard of human rights abuses. Some may say 'who cares' what Amnesty International or other Human Rights watchdogs say about us. As a nation we should care. If we don't care about our reputation in the world, we are the losers, no one else.

It is past time that Australia tried to improve her image in the eyes of the world. Do we want to be looked on as an image of America?

We have the audacity to jump up and down when Indonesia treats one of our children the same way that we treat many of their children. We are in fact worse than Indonesia in that the 14 year old boy has been protected while awaiting trial, but their children are imprisoned with no such protection.

I'll say it again.....

SHAME! AUSTRALIA SHAME!

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #61 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 6:44am

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:20pm:

Quote:

If we believe that the special rights of children exist, then we must be vigilant in ensuring that a greater injustice is not committed against a child by presuming them to be adults because we do not have immediate access to their legal guardians.

So anyone who can successfully hide their identity while committing crimes accross multiple countries should get off scott free if they can't figure out who he is quick enough?

So anyway, back to the point... Indonesian minors in Australian adult prisons...

There are two problems here...

The first is the process by which we determine the age of an Indonesian offender (wrist X-rays) is clearly flawed and, if its true that up to 40 of 500 Indonesians in adult prisons are minors, then its seriously flawed... What, do you imagine, we would be saying to Indonesia if it was they who were imprisoning Australian children at that rate? Can you imagine the headlines and talkback radio comments?

The second is that it appears we're almost criminally slow to do the right thing when its clear we've made a mistake :

Quote:

One of the longest detentions involves a 16-year-old boy named Ardi.

He spent one and a half years in custody before his lawyer managed to obtain enough evidence to prove Ardi was a minor.

He was then transferred from an adult prison to an immigration detention centre in Darwin, and from there he was supposed to be sent home.

But Radio National's Background Briefing program has discovered that almost two months later, Ardi was still in detention, despite having no charges against him.

Ardi's lawyer David Svoboda says he demanded the immediate release of his client.

He says the next day, a Department of Immigration official told him Ardi would be on a plane to Indonesia the same day.

Mr Svoboda says he believes that if he had not made those inquiries, Ardi may have remained in detention indefinitely.

Justice delayed is ........ ?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #62 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 6:54am

Regarding an Indonesian boy who had been locked up in a maximum security jail in Western Australia .

Quote:

The AFP have not accepted his date of birth, but have not performed the most basic checks. They did not notify Indonesian consular officials of his presence nor did they seek their assistance in determining Kurniawan’s age. Instead the AFP used a wrist-bone scan to determine his age. This technique, established in Australia during the 1950s, is widely discredited. It involves comparing X-rays with those taken from a sample of largely white middle-class children in the United States in the 1930s. It doesn’t take into account that Indonesian children are often working by the time they are 13 and that their wrists therefore show more wear and tear.

Interesting that (but not particularly surprising)... The wrist tests compares Indonesian village childrens' with those taken from a sample of largely white middle-class children in the United States in the 1930s.

http://directaction.org.au/issue34/indonesian_children_in_australian_prisons

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49222 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #63 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:41am Quote: What, do you imagine, we would be saying to Indonesia if it was they who were imprisoning Australian children at that rate? I imagine we would be saying "here is the paperwork confirming their age."
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #64 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:46am

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:41am:

Quote:

What, do you imagine, we would be saying to Indonesia if it was they who were imprisoning Australian children at that rate?

I imagine we would be saying "here is the paperwork confirming their age."

I guess we'd expect them to respond immediately and not rely on discredited wrist X-rays then have the minors locked up for a further 2 months without charge in a detention centre.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49222 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #65 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:51am Helian what do you expect them to do if they don't know a criminal's age? Maybe drill into their skull and look for growth rings? These are people who deliberately hide their identity while committing crimes on the open sea. It is not a kid caught shoplifting at the local mall.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #66 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:58am

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:51am:

Helian what do you expect them to do if they don't know a criminal's age? Maybe drill into their skull and look for growth rings? These are people who deliberately hide their identity while committing crimes on the open sea. It is not a kid caught shoplifting at the local mall.

Careful Freediver, your prejudice is showing...

Alleged criminals, Freediver.... Alleged.

For a start, wrist scans is an unreliable method of age estimation... What should a just society do with a clearly flawed process that results in miscarriages of justice?

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #67 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:33am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:58am:

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia.

But that will happen only when the bribe is right.

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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #68 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am

Quote:

Alleged criminals, Freediver.... Alleged.

Are you suggesting they are innocent?

Quote:

For a start, wrist scans is an unreliable method of age estimation...

Is there a reliable method? It seems to me that all you are doing is complaining without offering any kind of improvement.

Quote:

What should a just society do with a clearly flawed process that results in miscarriages of justice?

This is not about justice Helian. It is not a question of innocence or guilt. It is about whether to give them a pardon. There is no burden of proof on our part. There is no "under 18 until proven over 18". It is you who seeks to undermine justice by insisting international criminals should walk free unless we can figure out who they really are.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #69 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:23pm

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am:

Quote:

Alleged criminals, Freediver.... Alleged.

Are you suggesting they are innocent?

Under Australian law even alleged smugglers are innocent until proven guilty, aren't they?

Under Australian law, minors caught with alleged smugglers are to be immediately deported without charge, aren't they?

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am:

Quote:

For a start, wrist scans is an unreliable method of age estimation...

Is there a reliable method? It seems to me that all you are doing is complaining without offering any kind of improvement.

How about holding those who may be minors in detention centres and not in maximum security prisons until their claims can be confirmed.

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am:

Quote:

What should a just society do with a clearly flawed process that results in miscarriages of justice?

This is not about justice Helian. It is not a question of innocence or guilt.

Not about justice? Grin

Isn't that the point of determining innocence or guilt?

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:22am:

It is about whether to give them a pardon. There is no burden of proof on our part. There is no "under 18 until proven over 18". It is you who seeks to undermine justice by insisting international criminals should walk free unless we can figure out who they really are.

And we commit a greater injustice by holding minor in maximum security prisons. Why maximum security? How dangerous is a young Indonesian poor village boy?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #70 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:28pm

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:58am:

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia.

Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #71 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:33pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:28pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:58am:

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia.

Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get.

I didn't tell 'em to have a Javanese Empire - did you?

Mebbe it' time for them to do a Yugoslavia or Soviet Union. Why do diversity, especially if they can't manage it? What is it good for? (Absolutely naught.)

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #72 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:36pm

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:28pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:58am:

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia.

Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get.

I didn't tell 'em to have a Javanese Empire - did you?

Mebbe it' time for them to do a Yugoslavia or Soviet Union. Why do diversity, especially if they can't manage it? What is it good for? (Absolutely naught.)

No one's asked me if I'd like an Australian head of state either, nor whether WA and Qld should secede... Looks like I'm stuck with the status quo, like the rest of us... Like it or not.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #73 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:53pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:36pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:28pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:58am:

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia.

Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get.

I didn't tell 'em to have a Javanese Empire - did you?

Mebbe it' time for them to do a Yugoslavia or Soviet Union. Why do diversity, especially if they can't manage it? What is it good for? (Absolutely naught.)

No one's asked me if I'd like an Australian head of state either, nor whether WA and Qld should secede... Looks like I'm stuck with the status quo, like the rest of us... Like it or not.

Not that any of this has anything to do with managing a vast multi-ethnic, fractious, corrupt backwater.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #74 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:59pm

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:53pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:36pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:33pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:28pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:33am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:58am:

What would we expect the Indonesians to do?

I, for one, expect them to stop their nationals, minors or not, from routinely engaging unlawful activity in Australia. That might go a very long way towards preventing their ... er... jailing in Australia.

Good point... Maybe when they've worked out how to manage a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi socio-economic population of 230 million spread over a multitude of islands 100% of the time... Maybe they could give us a few tips on managing the percentage of our crims and minors gone wrong within our 22 million... God knows, we need all the help we can get.

I didn't tell 'em to have a Javanese Empire - did you?

Mebbe it' time for them to do a Yugoslavia or Soviet Union. Why do diversity, especially if they can't manage it? What is it good for? (Absolutely naught.)

No one's asked me if I'd like an Australian head of state either, nor whether WA and Qld should secede... Looks like I'm stuck with the status quo, like the rest of us... Like it or not.

Not that any of this has anything to do with managing a vast multi-ethnic, fractious, corrupt backwater.

No, nice thought, but...

Would you really want 7 separate independent post-Indonesian states created in the aftermath of an Indonesian dissolution?

Geez, our senior politicians would be spending all their Parliamentary time up there trying to subvert their separate political and justice systems demanding Australian exceptionalism for our locals who break their laws.

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