Australian Politics Forum - Australian Hypocrisy

freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #75 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:34pm

Quote:

Under Australian law, minors caught with alleged smugglers are to be immediately deported without charge, aren't they?

Not exactly. It takes a while, especially if they lie about their identity.

Quote:

How about holding those who may be minors in detention centres and not in maximum security prisons until their claims can be confirmed.

How would this determine how old the adults are? Wrist X-rays seem like a much more reliable method to me. Or have you changed your mind about what you are complaining about?

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Not about justice? Grin Isn't that the point of determining innocence or guilt?

Sure, but it is not the point of determining their age.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #76 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:40pm

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:34pm:

Quote:

Under Australian law, minors caught with alleged smugglers are to be immediately deported without charge, aren't they?

Not exactly. It takes a while, especially if they lie about their identity.

Precious few can fake being under 18 I'd bet.

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:34pm:

Quote:

How about holding those who may be minors in detention centres and not in maximum security prisons until their claims can be confirmed.

How would this determine how old the adults are? Wrist X-rays seem like a much more reliable method to me. Or have you changed your mind about what you are complaining about?

Haven't changed my mind at all... Never said they shouldn't be detained... And given only a fraction of those caught working boats could plausibly claim to be under 18, holding those who do in detention centres hardly constitutes a national security risk. The real smugglers are safe in Indonesia running mafia style organisations... The ones we catch are poor fishermen...

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #77 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:42pm

"Would you really want 7 separate independent post-Indonesian states created in the aftermath of an Indonesian dissolution?"

Yes, please. Well, how about 3 or 4? If they do not belong together, they shouln't be together. What unites Indonesia?
Javanese overlordship. We have seen how it works in Timor.

Australia is a functioning democracy with a constitution that is older than most other constitutions in the world. Australi is a commonwealth as a result of a democratic choice. The Australian legal and political system is superior to almost every other in existence. Certainly in a completly different and uperior league from Indonnesia and the rest of Asia.

To me, that's a good enough reason to claim exception from the corrupt semi-sharia law that passes for justice in Indonesia. I think it is a false politeness to treat the backward and corrupt as if they weren't. It takes away what is lft of thir dignity, denying them their ability to take responsibiliy for themselves. There should not be a 'diversity of standards' by which countries are judged.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #78 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:46pm Quote: Precious few can fake being under 18 I'd bet. They fooled you. Quote: Never said they shouldn't be detained... So you support the detainment of children now? Quote: And given only a fraction of those caught working boats could plausibly claim to be under 18 Who said it has to be plausible?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #79 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:49pm

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:42pm:

There should not be a 'diversity of standards' by which countries are judged.

We should hold ourselves accountable only to the standards we have set for ourselves and those we'd will for all others...

The level of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #80 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:54pm

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:46pm:

Quote:

Precious few can fake being under 18 I'd bet.

They fooled you.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/05/15/1226056/376270-refugees.jpg

Did they?

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:46pm:

Quote:

Never said they shouldn't be detained...

So you support the detainment of children now?

Holding them in a centre designed for minors until their guardians can be contacted is not unreasonable... Seems the ones who were released as minors were not identified as such by the authorities, but by charity groups who sometimes took a few weeks to locate and obtain verifiable identification... A sight shorter than they had already been detained in maximum security prisons.

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:46pm:

Quote:

And given only a fraction of those caught working boats could plausibly claim to be under 18

Who said it has to be plausible?

Common sense. Or would you mistake your dad for your son?

And if they insisted on (the discredited) wrist x-rays, then maybe they shouldn't compare Indonesian village boys' wrists to middle class American ones.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #81 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:42pm How old is the American wrist xray survey?
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #82 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:43pm freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:42pm: How old is the American wrist xray survey? Done in 1930, I believe.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #83 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:47pm So you think modern day Indoesia is sufficiently backwards that the kids lead a life so much harder than American children during the great depression that it would show up as a statistically significant difference on wrist Xrays? Or are they just a different type of human so Xrays of white people don't count?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #84 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:53pm

freediver wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 9:47pm:

So you think modern day Indoesia is sufficiently backwards that the kids lead a life so much harder than American children during the great depression that it would show up as a statistically significant difference on wrist Xrays?

Or are they just a different type of human so Xrays of white people don't count?

Depends on whether the middle class kids had been working since they were 12, I guess (which I doubt)... The age when most Indonesians from poor fishing villages are expected to take on an adult's job ready or not. I'd bet even most Australian kids during the depression didn't work as hard.

Apples with apples...

Either way, the wrist X-ray procedure has already been discredited as unreliable.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #85 - Nov 1^st, 2011 at 8:14pm Either way, you still have not suggested a viable alternative to the X-rays. Are we back to drilling into their skulls? You seem to change your mind about what your complaint is every time this comes up. Who discredited it?
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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #86 - Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:17pm

freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 8:14pm:

Either way, you still have not suggested a viable alternative to the X-rays. Are we back to drilling into their skulls? You seem to change your mind about what your complaint is every time this comes up.

Who discredited it?

FD, you might not be sufficiently Irish Catholic atheist to see the point of helian's argument. All you need is artful conviction if you are in that category.

If foreigners are reliably identified as under age, they are treated accordingly under Australian law. If they cannot be reliably identified, the people who need to deal with them will take an educated guess until reliable information comes to hand.
This seems to work for most reasonable observers, except the Irish Catholic atheist demographic - or two out of three at any rate.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #87 - Nov 1^st, 2011 at 11:28pm

freediver wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 8:14pm:

Either way, you still have not suggested a viable alternative to the X-rays. Are we back to drilling into their skulls? You seem to change your mind about what your complaint is every time this comes up.

Who discredited it?

It's great reading your thrashing around... Usually it's only the sh!t posters who play that game here...

Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...

Quote:

The United Nations child protection agency UNICEF has warned that dental and skeletal tests should not be relied upon to determine the age of children, and recommends that assessments be made by interviewers who know the language and country of origin of a child. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees says if the exact age is uncertain, the child should be given the benefit of the doubt.

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« Last Edit: Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 8:51am by NorthOfNorth »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #88 - Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 8:36am

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:17pm:

If foreigners are reliably identified as under age, they are treated accordingly under Australian law. If they cannot be reliably identified, the people who need to deal with them will take an educated guess until reliable information comes to hand.

Not easy for that 'reliable information' coming to hand when the 'people who deal with them' don't bother to verify their claim nor inform the Indonesian consulate or Embassy.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #89 - Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 11:05am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 8:36am:

Soren wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:17pm:

If foreigners are reliably identified as under age, they are treated accordingly under Australian law. If they cannot be reliably identified, the people who need to deal with them will take an educated guess until reliable information comes to hand.

Not easy for that 'reliable information' coming to hand when the 'people who deal with them' don't bother to verify their claim nor inform the Indonesian consulate or Embassy.

Well, they are busy. Mebbe the detained Indonesians could actually think of contacting their own embassy.

Australia can be expected to act as a nanny state to Australians, not the whole bloody world.

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