Australian Politics Forum - Australian Hypocrisy

freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #90 - Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 7:10pm

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Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...

I think wrist Xrays would give a better estimate of age than telling a charity about the problem.

Quote:

and recommends that assessments be made by interviewers who know the language and country of origin of a child

Do you think this would be more accurate? Do you think it is not already done? Do you think the interviewers are unaware than the Indonesian people smugglers are from Indonesia and speak Indonesian?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #91 - Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 7:01am

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 7:10pm:

Quote:

Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...Maybe informing the Indonesian Consulate/Embassy... Or a Charity group... might be a start...

I think wrist Xrays would give a better estimate of age than telling a charity about the problem.

Really? It was a refugee rights activist group that got those minors mentioned previously back home, not wrist X-rays or the Australian authorities.

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2011 at 7:10pm:

Quote:

and recommends that assessments be made by interviewers who know the language and country of origin of a child

Do you think this would be more accurate? Do you think it is not already done? Do you think the interviewers are unaware than the Indonesian people smugglers are from Indonesia and speak Indonesian?

Speak Indonesian do they?

Poverty-stricken village kids are going to be more fluent in Bahasa Indonesia than any one of the 742 languages and dialects spoken within the Indonesian archipelago, you think?

In the cases mentioned previously, the Australian authorities didn't bother to consult the Indonesian Consulate / Embassy or make any attempt (other than wrist X-rays) to verify the minors' claims.

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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #92 - Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 6:47pm

Perhaps they were prioritising the processing of the refugees above the criminals that smuggled them in.

Did the parents of these 'children' know what they were up to? It seems to me that the most obvious course of action is to wait for the parents to come forward and make a complaint. This would be a good way to separate out those who genuinely are minors from those trying to hide their identity.

Are you suggesting that the Indonesian authorities were unaware of the situation? It all seems either very far fetched or based on only half the story.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #93 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:48am

freediver wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 6:47pm:

Did the parents of these 'children' know what they were up to? It seems to me that the most obvious course of action is to wait for the parents to come forward and make a complaint. This would be a good way to separate out those who genuinely are minors from those trying to hide their identity.

The definition of 'minor' in a poverty-stricken Indonesian village is unlikely to be the same as ours, where the age of 'majority' is more closely associated with puberty and when the minor can take on the labour responsibilities of an adult, or even marry.

freediver wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 6:47pm:

Are you suggesting that the Indonesian authorities were unaware of the situation? It all seems either very far fetched or based on only half the story.

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #94 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm

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In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #95 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #96 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 8:00pm

don't tell me they have mistaken a 13 year old for a grown up!

If these kids look like our late teens early twenties, then a fetish aout the number of revolutions around the sun since their birth may be not that relevant de facto, even if it is de jure.
Turn it around - would you want developmentally adult foreigners in juvenile prison with all the innocent Aussie bunnies???

Mind you, I have seen a middle eastern kid in a junior high school uniform with a bushier and longer beard than I could ever hope for, a hairy middle weight viking lesbian trapped in a man's body though I am.

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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #97 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 8:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Obviously people who do not know how it feels to join an international crime syndicate at 13 are unlikely to find out how it feels to end up in a big kids prison at 13.

He still got off lightly.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #98 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:01pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Where are his parents?? By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents.

But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values.

But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!!

It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!! Are you sure you are an atheist?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #99 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:29pm

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 8:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Obviously people who do not know how it feels to join an international crime syndicate at 13 are unlikely to find out how it feels to end up in a big kids prison at 13.

He still got off lightly.

Did he?

I'll have to take your word for it.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #100 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:36pm

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Where are his parents?? By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents.

But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values.

But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!!

It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!! Are you sure you are an atheist?

Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere...

The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein, of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own...

Either he was in fact a minor when in Australia by our definition (no matter how hard he'd been working since he was 12), then he is a minor. That is the only relevant standard in this case that need primarily concern us.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #101 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:53pm I am a 12 year old Hindu girl. LAWYER!!!!
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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #102 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:36pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Where are his parents?? By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents.

But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values.

But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!!

It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!! Are you sure you are an atheist?

Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere...

The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein, of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own...

Either he was in fact a minor when in Australia by our definition (no matter how hard he'd been working since he was 12), then he is a minor. That is the only relevant standard in this case that need primarily concern us.

What concern us is : how do we know what age he is when we get im off that boat without authentic proof of ID?

How many 13 year old do YOU know that look 18-19?

Or are you saying tha Australian governement officials knowingly treat obviously 13 boys as adults? If so, you should report it to the Attorney General.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #103 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:02pm

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:58pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:36pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 9:01pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 7:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:56pm:

Quote:

In the case of the families mentioned previously, they were unaware of their sons' whereabouts... One family thought their sons had been lost at sea while fishing.

Kind of ironic seeing as he was one of the people losing others at sea. Still, I am sure they are glad he did not suffer the same fate as other recent people smugglers. It's a good outcome for all really.

If you mean anything is better than death... Then that's one thing... Although I wouldn't know how it feels being incarcerated in an adult prison at 13, indefinitely and without charge, I'm guessing that wouldn't be better than being immediately repatriated and back home with family, wouldn't you think?

Where are his parents?? By our standards, you should be moaning about his parents.

But no. Until they get caught, it's the rich tapestry of cultural differnece, innit, mustn't be all western imperialists projecting our values.

But once they are caught, it's all 'we are the world', same standard for all, heartless Australia turning a blind eye to cultural difference!!

It's goddam magic, Pat, worthy of a Christian!! Catch 'em and it's a different game!! Are you sure you are an atheist?

Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere...

The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein, of others' standards (for better or worse) is no excuse for failing our own...

Either he was in fact a minor when in Australia by our definition (no matter how hard he'd been working since he was 12), then he is a minor. That is the only relevant standard in this case that need primarily concern us.

What concern us is : how do we know what age he is when we get im off that boat without authentic proof of ID?

How many 13 year old do YOU know that look 18-19?

Or are you saying tha Australian governement officials knowingly treat obviously 13 boys as adults? If so, you should report it to the Attorney General.

Probably the authorities couldn't be bothered going any further that the wrist x-ray check... Didn't even call the Consulate or Embassy...

I'd bet it already has been reported to the Attorney General.

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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #104 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:03pm

Quote:

Australian legal standards (the primary measure which we are obliged to meet) apply in Australia... Others' standards (for better or worse) apply elsewhere...

We cannot apply our standards for being able to tell how old a criminal is. Were it an Australian criminal whose age could not be determined he would be treated the same way, and there would be no obligation on the police to move heaven and earth to figure out who he is. No hypocrisy there. Remember the 'German' lass?

Quote:

The level, the quality, the measure of justice therein

You keep confusing this for an issue of justice, which it is not. It is not out of justice that we let criminals walk free.

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